Clashes along Franco-Polish Border: Technology & Geo-Politics

The Iberian nations would seem to be the simplest and least change at the moment so I'll start with them.

Both Portugal and Spain exist and seem to cover roughly the same area as OTL.

Both would be monarchies, in fact there doesn't seem to be any true republics in Europe in this ATL, at least none have been mentioned.

Portugal is, as always, allied to Britain and also has a defence agreement with Sweden, (The Stockholm Pact - Britain, Portugal and Sweden (and maybe others)), though this is a much more recent development than the Anglo-Portuguese alliance.

Spain appears to be more powerfull here and seems to have avoid or recovered from it's pre-20th century decline, at least to some extent.

Spain appears to want to expand it's influence in North Africa and the Med. at the expense of Britain.
 
On the subject of spain, my impression is that it is a major power (second largest navy was mentioned somewhere), a formidable opponent in Europe, but still not as strong in that area as it wants to be. It probably has a large number of colonies abroad to compensate. Rivalry with France is likely, but it appears that it has something of a bone to pick with the British over control of the Western mediterranean. In that region, it seems that the British have more forces but a tenuous grasp on actual power. italy has numerous border disagreements on just about every frontier and over every bit of territory,, the French probably want more Sway in the islands and north africa, and the spanish want to kick the british out.

did i mention that every European country seems to dislike every other country it borders?
 
In terms of territory the Britain of this ATL is consistant with the UK of OTL, with the exception that all of Ireland remains under the British Crown.

Outside of the British Isles England has quite extensive European possessions. Mentioned so far are Calais, The Netherlands, The Baleric Islands, Sardinia and Cyprus.

Also mentioned as British are Tangier and Morrocco and several North American Dominions including Pennsylvania, New England, Virginia, Florida and New York.

(The latter's also been name-checked as New Amsterdam about which arguements will be scheduled later)

As yet this "British Empire" is the only place with any named individuals:

In Britain we've had named as living people Elizabeth III, The Prince Regent, The Earl of Ulster (Prime Minister), Gregory Orwell (Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster), Sir Hector Campbell (senior politician).

In America we have Martin Roosevelt (Govenor General of the American Dominions), Mike Taft (PM of New England) and Max and Thom Franklin (Rival Pennsylvania politicians).

Taft political party the Progressive Liberals have also been mentioned.

While the American Dominions have their own parliaments the European and North African ones are represented in the British Parliament (Calais was in OTL so I've extended that idea here)

Oh, and there's also a Channel Tunnel from England to Calais.
 
On the subject of spain, my impression is that it is a major power (second largest navy was mentioned somewhere), a formidable opponent in Europe, but still not as strong in that area as it wants to be. It probably has a large number of colonies abroad to compensate. Rivalry with France is likely, but it appears that it has something of a bone to pick with the British over control of the Western mediterranean. In that region, it seems that the British have more forces but a tenuous grasp on actual power. italy has numerous border disagreements on just about every frontier and over every bit of territory,, the French probably want more Sway in the islands and north africa, and the spanish want to kick the british out.

France has the second largest navy but I can see where you got the idea it was Spain from:

Link

I'd say Britain has the largest navy (natch), then France, and the rest of the top five is made up of Spain, Japan and Russia, (the precise order of precedence can be worked out in the discussion).

You're right about Italy, but remember that the Kingdom of Italy consists of just the Italian Peninsula here, with Britain owning Sardinia and France Sicily and Corsica (which Italy may consider theirs by right in this ATL).

Italy also probably doesn't have as much land in the North thanks to France and Austria (though it may get a consolation prize in the Slovenia/North Croatia area).

did i mention that every European country seems to dislike every other country it borders?

They do don't they.
 
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Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

This area seems to be causing some confusion, with people unsure what countries exist and what area they cover.

Those mentioned include Denmark, Sweden, The United Kingdoms of Norden and the Finnish Empire.

(Norway hasn't been mentioned)

The Finnish Empire has been painted as very powerful and able to sack major Russian cities by the poster who thought it up, however other posters have contradicted this by speaking of Sweden and Norden.

My problem is seeing where'd you get enough Finns to have an empire? My suggestion is either a Kingdom or Grand Duchy of Finland that spun off from Sweden and is generally opposed by Russia.

The United Kingdoms of Norden was mentioned quite early and again has been contradicted by later posters. Norden seems to be some sort of Scandinavian monarchist EU/NATO, (someone mentions Courland applying for membership), but it can also seem like a single monarchy, (the pre-1905 Swedish-Norwegian kingdom).

For some reason this idea doesn't work for me, it just sounds too artifical, like that New World Order map that's in Chat. Of course Norden might be Norway and Denmark but the latter is usually spoken of as an individual country and the former has been mentioned at all.

Sweden seems quite powerfull and either it or Norden has invaded Polish Courland. Sweden also has a defence treaty with Britain and Portugal though the present Swedish government seems a bit right wing and nationalistic and prone to rubbing it's allies up the wrong way.

Denmark exists and seems to have spread out and taken it's own little bit of North Germany territory. Not as much as France or Poland but enough to give it land outside of Jutland.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.

This area seems to be causing some confusion, with people unsure what countries exist and what area they cover.

Those mentioned include Denmark, Sweden, The United Kingdoms of Norden and the Finnish Empire.

(Norway hasn't been mentioned)

The Finnish Empire has been painted as very powerful and able to sack major Russian cities by the poster who thought it up, however other posters have contradicted this by speaking of Sweden and Norden.

My problem is seeing where'd you get enough Finns to have an empire? My suggestion is either a Kingdom or Grand Duchy of Finland that spun off from Sweden and is generally opposed by Russia.

The United Kingdoms of Norden was mentioned quite early and again has been contradicted by later posters. Norden seems to be some sort of Scandinavian monarchist EU/NATO, (someone mentions Courland applying for membership), but it can also seem like a single monarchy, (the pre-1905 Swedish-Norwegian kingdom).

For some reason this idea doesn't work for me, it just sounds too artifical, like that New World Order map that's in Chat. Of course Norden might be Norway and Denmark but the latter is usually spoken of as an individual country and the former has been mentioned at all.

Sweden seems quite powerfull and either it or Norden has invaded Polish Courland. Sweden also has a defence treaty with Britain and Portugal though the present Swedish government seems a bit right wing and nationalistic and prone to rubbing it's allies up the wrong way.

Denmark exists and seems to have spread out and taken it's own little bit of North Germany territory. Not as much as France or Poland but enough to give it land outside of Jutland.


I see it as a personal union between Denmark-Norway and Sweden, with Denmark as the lesser partner, the Duchy of Courland applying for membership is the somewhat equal to Saxonys membership in the German Empire in OTL, they will have their own Monarch but they will swear fealthy to the King of Sweden-Denmark-Norway.
 
Greece and Turkey both exist, the latter in the form of the Ottoman Empire, and both exhibit their traditional antipathy for each other.

Turkey seems relatively powerfull at the moment with people suggesting that Ottoman intervention could gaurantee a Polish victory and that Turkey could pose serious problems for Russia in a fight.

The Empire has had some troubles in the past however.

At some point it lost Syria which now has a Bourbon king on the throne. It also lost Constantinople to the Greeks but regained the city fifty years prior to the present day.

Greece's fortunes seem to mirror Trukey's. As mentioned above Greece managed to conquer Constantinople at some point and until fifty years ago the city was the Kingdom of Greece's capital.

(The current capital is Athens, this is regarded as a temporary measure)

The sizes of Greece and European Turkey are as yet undefinded though I'd lean towards them being slightly larger than in OTL, though in different areas. Greece spreading more into OTL Yugoslavia and Turkey more Northwards towards Poland and Romania.
 
The Finnish Empire has been painted as very powerful and able to sack major Russian cities by the poster who thought it up, however other posters have contradicted this by speaking of Sweden and Norden.

My problem is seeing where'd you get enough Finns to have an empire? My suggestion is either a Kingdom or Grand Duchy of Finland that spun off from Sweden and is generally opposed by Russia.

Landshark

As I said elsewhere I suggested a powerful Finnish empire as a bit of fun and something different. If you started early enough and had the Finns not driven from what's now northern Russia, then have them expand from that with good leadership it would be practical, although I admit somewhat [i.e. highly] unlikely. However it was meant to throw something different into the ring. Since most posters are going for a more conventional Swedish/Danish centred Scandinavia which has largely/totally been drive out of areas east of OTL Finland so might as well go with that.

Steve
 
RUSSIA:

Russia ITTL seems to be a Great Power on the decline. She has the largest army in the world, has vassalized Rumania, and controls California (including, presumably, Alaska). However, the United Kingdoms of Norden (which, by the way, I see as a Nordic EU, where independent kingdoms each make their own semi-independent policy, but an Emperor strives futilely to maintain unity) has recently defeated it in a war, and the Ottomans want to take Rumania back from Russia. Also, the British Dominions are arrayed against Russian California. Also, a "Caucasian War" is mentioned; presumably this was fought with the Ottoman Empire (Poland is mentioned as participating, also).

This Russia is ruled by Czars, presumably Romanovs, and it is as yet unspecified whether this is an absolute monarchy.

TECHNOLOGY:

The technology ITTL seems about the same or mildly more advanced than ours. There is a space station, however, it is under purely British control (I believe). The British also have the "Moon VI", a telecommunications satellite in orbit over the UK. Tanks exist, and are called kampvogns. Most people get their news off of either "NewsNet" or "DataWire". DataWire is run by Tories, and NewsNet is run by an opposing party.
 
RUSSIA:

Russia ITTL seems to be a Great Power on the decline. She has the largest army in the world, has vassalized Rumania, and controls California (including, presumably, Alaska). However, the United Kingdoms of Norden (which, by the way, I see as a Nordic EU, where independent kingdoms each make their own semi-independent policy, but an Emperor strives futilely to maintain unity) has recently defeated it in a war, and the Ottomans want to take Rumania back from Russia. Also, the British Dominions are arrayed against Russian California. Also, a "Caucasian War" is mentioned; presumably this was fought with the Ottoman Empire (Poland is mentioned as participating, also).

This Russia is ruled by Czars, presumably Romanovs, and it is as yet unspecified whether this is an absolute monarchy.

So far the only dominions mentioned are derived from the 13 Colonies, except for Florida, but there must be more of them inland and in Canada. It's probable that Britain and Russia share North America with other colonial powers, France and Spain for a start, and that California doesn't just refer to OTL California but a substantially larger Russian colony - perhaps we have Alaska in the North, California in the South and Oregon in the middle?

TECHNOLOGY:

The technology ITTL seems about the same or mildly more advanced than ours. There is a space station, however, it is under purely British control (I believe). The British also have the "Moon VI", a telecommunications satellite in orbit over the UK. Tanks exist, and are called kampvogns. Most people get their news off of either "NewsNet" or "DataWire". DataWire is run by Tories, and NewsNet is run by an opposing party.

I don't remember any mention of a space station, the only satellite mentioned is the Moon VI telecom satellite which seems to be a regular satellite rather than a space station. Still it does show that there's a space program in this ATL and that rockets are advanced enough to carry "immense" payloads.

It's my opinion that Kampvogn is just the Polish term for tank like Panzer is the German term. Kampvogn doesn't really roll off the tongue in English so I expect Britain has it's own name for tanks, though it wouldn't be tank considering how the name came into use in OTL.

I think the DataWire is this ATL's Internet and that NewsNet is the CNN/Sky News/Fox News here. For some reason I see NewsNet as having a more intergrated Internet/DataWire presense though, with you being able to access video on the web as well as on the TV.
 
Regarding the DataWire, someone who reads NewsNet said, in reply to Landshark's comments regarding it being untrustworthy, that the Tory DataWire was just as bad. Also, the space station was my error. Also, I believe several people who play non-Poles referred to kampvogns. Maybe it's just pronounced in a more English way?
 
Regarding the DataWire, someone who reads NewsNet said, in reply to Landshark's comments regarding it being untrustworthy, that the Tory DataWire was just as bad.

The original reference to DataWire is this:

Link

And the inference that it's "Tory DataWire" is a bit ambigouous.

Ugh, we all know why Tories hate NewsNet
No one, on NewsNet or elsewhere said anything about "Cossacks in Paris", "World Wars" or "Krakow being bombed flat"

Sounds more like something your DataWire would pump out to me
 
I assume that the PoD is France doing better in the War of the Grand Alliance, followed by a stronger Sweden which conquers Denmark-Norway and an alternate outcome for the War of the Spanish Succession...
 
Just to remind people that this is still here.


Russia has gained a Tsar in the form of Pavel VI, and has also gained a Chancellor (Prime-Minister) by the name of Ignatyev.

The Russian parliament is still the Duma which may or may not just refer to the lower house. The upper house, which can veto bills, is the Senate.

The National People's Party led by Sergei Bludov is strong in the lower house and hostile to the Ignatyev government and to Poland.

With the NPP think of any right-wing fascist or neo-nazi political party.
 
Good point... :eek:
That was the best I could come up with at the time, though... :eek:

OOC: Ok... I think I got a PoD - Mary Tudor pre-deceases Edward VI for some reason (maybe he lives longer or she catches something bad which kills her). That would mean that Engiand might retain Calais if they don't get wrapped up in Franco-Spanish fighting on the Spanish side.

Once the Northern Netherlands become independent (don't see that changing), Elizabeth agrees to become their Queen (for whatever reason) and France gives Spain the finger and annexes the Southern Netherlands and the County of Burgundy in exchange for letting England keep Calais and the Northern Netherlands...
After Elizabeth I dies, whoever is the ruler of Scotland becomes king of England, Ireland and the Netherlands as well...

For some reason, Poland stays strong - perhaps no/reduced Liberum Veto?
 
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