Civil War Naval Battle Royal

During the Civil War, the Confederates contracted for several ironclad warships to be built in Britain and France. In OTL, these vessels were all seized as a result of protests by the U.S. government, and only one of them ever saw service as a Confederate vessel. These were...

--Two turreted ironclad rams built by Laird Brothers in Birkenhead, England.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Scorpion_(1863)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Wivern_(1863)

--Two other ironclad rams built by Arman Brothers in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Kōtetsu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Prinz_Adalbert_(1865)

--An Ironclad Frigate, built in Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danmark_(armoured_frigate)

Now, lets assume that somehow...the how and why are not important to the scenario...the ships are all completed by early June 1864, the Confederates persuade Britain and France to release the ships into their hands, and they have them equipped and ready to sail by mid-July 1864. The Confederate fleet is placed under the command of Raphael Semmes, and sent to Mobile Bay. It arrives off Mobile Bay on August 3, in time to intervene in the Battle of Mobile Bay, where it is supported by the ironclad ram C.S.S. Tennessee and some wooden Confederate gunboats, as well as by the fire of Forts Morgan and Gaines.

It, of course, encounters a mixed Union fleet of wooden warships and ironclad monitors commanded by David G. Farragut. The battle takes place in the Gulf of Mexico, just outside the waters of the Bay itself. So no torpedos to worry about.

Who wins, and why?
 
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Robert,

Should be easy enough to game. There are any number of miniature rules sets for the period in question, several of which are free. Yaquinto's old Ironclads Expansion board game should have all of the units involved too.

Check out the "ACW" category here for some free choices. Smoke on the Water is a good design.

You needn't own any little lead figures to use mini rules either. Do what I do when reviewing a new set of rules. Because all miniatures games have basing requirements - bases are the rectangular bits the pretty figures sit or stand on - I simply cut up poster or card board into the proper shapes, ink them with the pertinent information, and give the rules a test drive.

The result may not look as pretty as the real thing, but I don't need buy, paint, or mount figures in order to play either. Just as with hardback books, I've enough figures already. I'm not going to buy some for a set of rules I may not like.

As for the Union OOB, if the South managed to get five foreign built ironclads in one port, Welles is going to move heaven and earth to reinforce Farragut. He won't be steaming in with the same number and types of ships as he had in the OTL.


Bill
 
Yeah ...

One Way to Approach it, Would be to Add to The Union OOB; Until they just BARELY have an Insurmountable Advantage ...

Then you'd go Back to The Historical Record, And See if that is Even Remotely Plausible; That should Give you The Answers to your Questions!

:D
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Why would the Confederates fight outside the bay? It would make much more sense for them to fight inside the bay, thus forcing the Union vessels across the line of torpedoes and allowing the full brunt of the fortress guns to be brought against them.
 
Or allowing the Union to block all entrance to and exit from the port, rendering it useless, while landing army units nearby and hitting the port from another direction.


What happens? Well, the Alabama claim probably results in the British paying an even higher figure in damages, probably the French in a separate case.
 
Why would the Confederates fight outside the bay? It would make much more sense for them to fight inside the bay, thus forcing the Union vessels across the line of torpedoes and allowing the full brunt of the fortress guns to be brought against them.

Because the ironclads in question...especially the broadside frigate...are ocean-going, deep draft vessels and maneuvering around in the relatively confined waters of the bay might be problematic. But I suppose they could probably fight in the Bay, if they got there in enough time to be safely guided in by experienced pilots.
 
Robert,

Should be easy enough to game. There are any number of miniature rules sets for the period in question, several of which are free. Yaquinto's old Ironclads Expansion board game should have all of the units involved too.

Check out the "ACW" category here for some free choices. Smoke on the Water is a good design.

You needn't own any little lead figures to use mini rules either. Do what I do when reviewing a new set of rules. Because all miniatures games have basing requirements - bases are the rectangular bits the pretty figures sit or stand on - I simply cut up poster or card board into the proper shapes, ink them with the pertinent information, and give the rules a test drive.

The result may not look as pretty as the real thing, but I don't need buy, paint, or mount figures in order to play either. Just as with hardback books, I've enough figures already. I'm not going to buy some for a set of rules I may not like.

Bill, I actually have already gamed it. The Confederates won, but took a lot of damage in the process. But I was wondering what some of our naval experts around here thought.

As for the Union OOB, if the South managed to get five foreign built ironclads in one port, Welles is going to move heaven and earth to reinforce Farragut. He won't be steaming in with the same number and types of ships as he had in the OTL.


Bill

I would agree, PROVIDED the Union is aware the Confederate ships are there. If they are aware, however, I would expect USS New Ironsides, and perhaps 2-3 more monitors from the Charleston squadron, to be sent down to assist (although Farragut already had a good size force of monitors at the battle in OTL).
 

Dure

Banned
As a matter of interest robertp6165 what US ships did you send against the Confederate ironclad fleet? More interestingly how did the US fleet inflict 'a lot of damage'? The British built ships all have ca. 4.5 inch or better rolled plate armour. The French built ones have ca. 4.5 inch forged plate armour, not as good but better than anything the USA had save New Ironsides. The two French boats are small, throw enough heavy shot at them and they will fall appart even if they cannot be penetrated. The Laird rams might also be overwhelmed in that way but Danmark? Nothing the USA has can touch her other than at almost point blank range. If the USA had enough ships mobbing and boarding might be an option but it could go Arturo Prat rather than Nelson. Please tell me more of your gaming I am very interested.
 
Bill, I actually have already gamed it. The Confederates won, but took a lot of damage in the process.


Robert,

I should have known. ;)

The "Victors Damaged Nearly As Much As The Losers" is a common result in naval battles of this era. It happens so often when I game in the period that I rarely note it.

But I was wondering what some of our naval experts around here thought.

After reading you post more closely, something I should have done at first, I realized that you're talking about a "meeting engagement" of sorts. Semmes crosses the Atlantic with his squadron and heads for Mobile(1) where he encounters Farragut. This raises a couple of questions, the chief of which is whether Farragut would fight. If he's significantly outnumbered, and having five European-built ironclads steaming in should at least give him a hint that he is, he could very well withdraw and leave an observation force.

I would agree, PROVIDED the Union is aware the Confederate ships are there...

I've read Bullock's book as I'm sure you have. The Union was perfectly aware of where and when the various ships built for the South by Britain and France were launched. Union ambassadors filed unending complaints to the governments in question and, once the USN grew large enough, there were US warships stationed off the ports in question.

The assembly, arming, and readying of such a large squadron would have been known and measures taken. At the very least once it is known that Semmes is readying for departure, I should think orders to the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Gulf blockading squadrons would have them concentrate for mutual protection against such a powerful force. Semmes may not find Farragut off Mobile readying his assault force or he may find Farragut off Mobile/Ship Island with the entire Gulf Blockading Squadron.

Case in point. CSS Stonewall was shadowed from her building slip in France to Ferrol in Spain where she took on arms and other stores. The USN commander there, aboard Niagara IIRC, decided to avoid fighting as Stonewall left the harbor (and faced a court martial for it) but instead shadowed the turret ram to Havana where the US engineered a "round the hedge" purchase of the vessel.

We also need to remain acutely aware of another important aspect of these vessels; coal consumption. As you know, we're not dealing with triple expansion engines and water tube boilers. These ships are not just coal burners, they're coal hogs. Semmes squadron will have to coal after crossing the Atlantic either at Bermuda, the Bahamas, or Havana and, when he touches land, the Union will know where he is and where he is most likely headed.

If they are aware, however, I would expect USS New Ironsides, and perhaps 2-3 more monitors from the Charleston squadron, to be sent down to assist (although Farragut already had a good size force of monitors at the battle in OTL).

Agreed, if Mobile is know to be Semmes destination. Whichever port Semmes chooses, the USN will concentrate there. Until Semmes' location is known, I'd think the blockading squadrons will stay in their "home" waters, concentrated as I've noted and ready to dispatch reinforcements to wherever they'll be needed. Onondaga might be pulled out of the James too and sent south. The Union already has the captured and substantially rebuilt Atlanta on the James, she should be enough. Dictator is available too. While Puritan is still awaiting her guns, she could easily be armed with smaller pieces and dispatched.

However things turn out, it will put Lissa to shame. :)


Bill

1 - While Mobile does have CSS Tennessee waiting in the harbor, might it be better for the CSA to raise the blockade at Wilmington instead? That port is closer to Lee, the "end user", and closer to Bermuda, the "supplier". Clearing Pamlico and Albemarle Sounds after lifting the Wilmington blockade would reap great benefits too.
 
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One problem is that this impromptu CSN squadron is liable to be lacking in experienced manpower, not to mention in drilling as individual ships and especially as a squadron.

I am trying to determine why the CSA is going to take a squadron which took years to gather and risk it all on one turn of the dice.
 
One problem is that this impromptu CSN squadron is liable to be lacking in experienced manpower, not to mention in drilling as individual ships and especially as a squadron.

I am trying to determine why the CSA is going to take a squadron which took years to gather and risk it all on one turn of the dice.

I would be more interested in knowing where they got the crews in the first place. Some of those ships need upwards of 500 crew to run, and the Confederacy was never that rich in experienced seamen. I just don't see how the Confederacy is going to both find that many crewmen and officers and sneak them through the blockade in mid/late 1864. We might well see half manned ships running low on fuel and without sufficient crewers to either fully utilize their sails or man the guns tossed in as a desperate last ditch effort, leading to a windfall for the USN once those ships are captured.

Come to think of it, did the Confederates have enough foreign exchange to pay for all those ships? I understand they never did for most of them thanks to them getting impounded.
 
One problem is that this impromptu CSN squadron is liable to be lacking in experienced manpower, not to mention in drilling as individual ships and especially as a squadron.


Grimm,

Very good observations there.

In the OTL by 1863, Confederate agents in Europe were trying to sell off Danmark, the fifth ship on Robert's list, because she required too large a crew.

I am trying to determine why the CSA is going to take a squadron which took years to gather and risk it all on one turn of the dice.

Desperation?

Why else would Page take Stonewall across the Atlantic as late as March of '65? There was nothing that ship could actually do to effect the outcome of the war, she could only add to the total of deaths. [BTW, my memory is full of holes. Stonewall left Corunna Spain, not Ferrol. :( ]


Bill
 
After reading you post more closely, something I should have done at first, I realized that you're talking about a "meeting engagement" of sorts. Semmes crosses the Atlantic with his squadron and heads for Mobile(1) where he encounters Farragut. This raises a couple of questions, the chief of which is whether Farragut would fight. If he's significantly outnumbered, and having five European-built ironclads steaming in should at least give him a hint that he is, he could very well withdraw and leave an observation force.

Well, actually, the fleet with which Farragut attacked Mobile Bay would significantly outnumber the Confederate force in total vessels. Where he would be outnumbered is in ironclads. He had 14 wooden ships and 4 monitors. A man like Farragut might well decide to stand and fight under those conditions.

I've read Bullock's book as I'm sure you have. The Union was perfectly aware of where and when the various ships built for the South by Britain and France were launched. Union ambassadors filed unending complaints to the governments in question and, once the USN grew large enough, there were US warships stationed off the ports in question.

That's true. The Union would certainly know the Confederate fleet had left Britain. But since there is no radio in those days, that does not translate into immediate knowledge by Farragut that the Confederate fleet is at sea, or that it is headed for Mobile.

The assembly, arming, and readying of such a large squadron would have been known and measures taken. At the very least once it is known that Semmes is readying for departure, I should think orders to the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, and Gulf blockading squadrons would have them concentrate for mutual protection against such a powerful force. Semmes may not find Farragut off Mobile readying his assault force or he may find Farragut off Mobile/Ship Island with the entire Gulf Blockading Squadron.

I think you are overestimating the effect this would have, even if true. The closest ironclads of any significance that could be added to the Union fleet at Mobile were probably those at Charleston. They would not likely be sent to Farragut because they would be, as you say, ordered to concentrate along with the South Atlantic Squadron, most likely off Charleston, to protect the wooden vessels there. The only other nearby ironclads were the river ironclads on the Mississippi and Red Rivers which couldn't really operate too well in the Gulf of Mexico, and were very thinly armored anyway. Concentrating the rest of the Gulf Blockading squadron isn't going to help Farragut much. Most of those ships are pretty useless for an engagement like this, being 90-day gunboats and the like with a few small guns on them...good for stopping a blockade runner, but little else. Farragut had all the best ships in the Gulf Squadron at Mobile Bay.

We also need to remain acutely aware of another important aspect of these vessels; coal consumption. As you know, we're not dealing with triple expansion engines and water tube boilers. These ships are not just coal burners, they're coal hogs. Semmes squadron will have to coal after crossing the Atlantic either at Bermuda, the Bahamas, or Havana and, when he touches land, the Union will know where he is and where he is most likely headed.

The Confederate vessels were equipped with sails, so their coal consumption on the Atlantic crossing would be minimal. I agree they would likely take on coal at Bermuda, but unless there is a security leak, that does not tell the Union where the fleet is ultimately headed.

Until Semmes' location is known, I'd think the blockading squadrons will stay in their "home" waters, concentrated as I've noted and ready to dispatch reinforcements to wherever they'll be needed. Onondaga might be pulled out of the James too and sent south. The Union already has the captured and substantially rebuilt Atlanta on the James, she should be enough. Dictator is available too. While Puritan is still awaiting her guns, she could easily be armed with smaller pieces and dispatched.

Agreed. The question is whether those reinforcement will get there before the battle is fought.

However things turn out, it will put Lissa to shame. :)

Agreed as well. It would have been a sight to behold. :cool:
 
I would be more interested in knowing where they got the crews in the first place. Some of those ships need upwards of 500 crew to run, and the Confederacy was never that rich in experienced seamen. I just don't see how the Confederacy is going to both find that many crewmen and officers and sneak them through the blockade in mid/late 1864. We might well see half manned ships running low on fuel and without sufficient crewers to either fully utilize their sails or man the guns tossed in as a desperate last ditch effort, leading to a windfall for the USN once those ships are captured.

Well, I can't say I disagree with you there. That probably is the most likely scenario. But the scenario we are discussing assumes that they do find the necessary manpower (perhaps all this occurs as a result of a decision by Britain and France to intervene in the war, and as a first step they release the ships and provide "volunteer" crews from their own navies to man them. The how and why are not important to the scenario, as stated above in my original post. What I am interested in is the result, should it happen).

Come to think of it, did the Confederates have enough foreign exchange to pay for all those ships? I understand they never did for most of them thanks to them getting impounded.

Again, this is irrelevant to the discussion we are having. The "how and why" of how they got the ships, armed and manned them are not important. The stated scenario assumes that they did succeed in these things, by whatever means.
 
As a matter of interest robertp6165 what US ships did you send against the Confederate ironclad fleet? More interestingly how did the US fleet inflict 'a lot of damage'? The British built ships all have ca. 4.5 inch or better rolled plate armour. The French built ones have ca. 4.5 inch forged plate armour, not as good but better than anything the USA had save New Ironsides. The two French boats are small, throw enough heavy shot at them and they will fall appart even if they cannot be penetrated. The Laird rams might also be overwhelmed in that way but Danmark? Nothing the USA has can touch her other than at almost point blank range. If the USA had enough ships mobbing and boarding might be an option but it could go Arturo Prat rather than Nelson. Please tell me more of your gaming I am very interested.

Well, I basically used the historical Union fleet which attacked Mobile Bay on August 5, 1864. The damage to the Confederate vessels tended to come in on things like smokestacks, rigging, and the like. All of the Confederate ships, except CSS Tennessee, were equipped with masts and sails, in addition to their steam engines, and these were vulnerable to heavy shot. The Union wooden ships also, as they did at the OTL battle of Mobile Bay, rammed the Confederate ironclads repeatedly, which caused some damage to the hulls. Of course, four of the Confederate ships being rams themselves, they were able to use that tactic in return, to greater effect, as well as deal significant damage to the Union wooden ships (but not the monitors so much) with their gunfire. The monitors which were lost (2 of the four) were rammed. Their armor was not penetrated.
 
Well, actually, the fleet with which Farragut attacked Mobile Bay would significantly outnumber the Confederate force in total vessels. Where he would be outnumbered is in ironclads. He had 14 wooden ships and 4 monitors. A man like Farragut might well decide to stand and fight under those conditions.


Robert,

I don't see Farragut in the Halsey mold. Yes, he was forceful and took risks, but his were calculated risks and not the actions Halsey routinely took; i.e. the typhoon, chasing Ozawa, etc.

Farragut steamed past the forts below New Orleans, but he knew that would isolate the forts from any support and that the city was undefended. Even his famous "Damn the torpedoes" comment is perfectly correct when examined; Tecumseh had steamed outside the lane Farragut had assigned to fleet to take when passing the forts and he'd chosen that lane because it was free of mines.

I can plausibly see Farrgut looking at five modern European ironclads and deciding the fight another day with reinforcements.

That's true. The Union would certainly know the Confederate fleet had left Britain. But since there is no radio in those days, that does not translate into immediate knowledge by Farragut that the Confederate fleet is at sea, or that it is headed for Mobile.

You're ignoring the lengthy preparation process required and the substantial presence of USN vessels in European waters that late in the war. Semmes isn't simply going to wake up and decide to steam away, he'll be making preparations that will tip his mitt to Union observers. It will be so obvious, as it was with all the other CSA warships in European ports, that "spies" won't even be necessary.

Radio isn't going to be necessary. The Union will know the ships are there and, when they being to get ready, messages will cross the Atlantic before Semmes raises anchor.

Look at the wiki page you linked for CSS Stonewall. The USN had several warships shadowing her from France to Denmark to Spain to Portugal before she started her Atlantic crossing. There's going to be plenty of warnings and plenty of shadowers.

I think you are overestimating the effect this would have, even if true. The closest ironclads of any significance that could be added to the Union fleet at Mobile were probably those at Charleston.

Because Semme's destination cannot be guessed in advance, I think the three blockading squadrons will concentrate for defense. Not in order to defeat Semmes mind you, that will have to wait until he's located and the Union ironclads can be gathered, they'll be concentrated to defend each other. The blockading squadrons will concentrate so that Semmes cannot snap up all those 90 day gunboats in penny packets during a coastal sweep.

Concentrating the rest of the Gulf Blockading squadron isn't going to help Farragut much. Most of those ships are pretty useless for an engagement like this, being 90-day gunboats and the like with a few small guns on them...good for stopping a blockade runner, but little else. Farragut had all the best ships in the Gulf Squadron at Mobile Bay.

Again, those small vessels aren't with Farragut to increase his striking power. They're with Farragut - or off Charleston or wherever the North Atlantic Blockading Squadron gathers - in order to be better protected from Semmes.

The Confederate vessels were equipped with sails, so their coal consumption on the Atlantic crossing would be minimal. I agree they would likely take on coal at Bermuda, but unless there is a security leak, that does not tell the Union where the fleet is ultimately headed.

Using sails solely with slow Semmes' crossing, thus giving the Union more time to plan. Using sails solely will also limit Semmes' options. Wind patterns will mean he'll have to make landfall in a certain number of places.

No security leak is necessary for Union agents at Bermuda, the Bahamas, or Havana to learn the squadron's destination. This is 1864 and warplans are freely printed in newspapers. Sailors ashore will talk, officers ashore will talk, coal heavers will talk, water hoy crews will talk, even the folks on the bum boats will talk. When Semmes touches land to coal, his destination will become known.

That's how Kearsarge caught him in the OTL after all.

The question is whether those reinforcement will get there before the battle is fought.

Assuming it's Mobile, and I don't think that's the best choice as late as '64, there will be a battle when Semmes arrives. There will then be a second battle when the USN reinforcements arrive.


Bill
 
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One interesting question about what might take place if the CSA ships arrive first and are inside the port when the Union fleet arrives.

Is it possible for the Union troops to be landed elsewhere and march on Mobile, in hopes of forcing the CSA to scuttle the ships or accept battle where their forts and torpedos will be unavailable for support?
 
Well, I can't say I disagree with you there. That probably is the most likely scenario. But the scenario we are discussing assumes that they do find the necessary manpower (perhaps all this occurs as a result of a decision by Britain and France to intervene in the war, and as a first step they release the ships and provide "volunteer" crews from their own navies to man them. The how and why are not important to the scenario, as stated above in my original post. What I am interested in is the result, should it happen).



.

My family is from the North West of England and has a history of service in the Merchant Navy. It is certainly my experience even today, that discussions of this kind allmost allways throw up the "fact" that crews would have been found in Liverpool and Manchester! Add to the fact that Manchester people suffered terribly with cotton workers losing their livelyhood due to the Union blockade, the folklore goes along with the CSA navy all talking with a Scouse accent!
There is a monument on Queen Street to Lincoln, when Lincoln gave thanks for the forebearance of the Manchester people during those troubled times. (the square in which it stands is now known as Lincoln Square)
 
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