Civil war breaks out 1868
- Thread starter Johnrankins
- Start date
It was proposed but the rail companies had more sway with Northern states though so they could get better deals also the North had a vast selection of cheaply hired immigrant workers that the South lacked so for economic as well as political reasons the North would always be chosen over the South when it came to heavy industry.
More likely it would have been another route then THE route. Makes far more sense to have a railroad in the North connecting a bunch of cities instead of one in the South connecting plantations.
I could maybe see border states choosing of their own volition to side with the Union but no Southern state I think would side with the Federal government you would a serious POD to get something like that to happen.
Kentucky could go for the Union earlier then OTL as it would be worried about truly overwhelming power coming down from the North if they don't.
Looks like it's adding up to a brief insurrection rather than a full blown civil war.
67th Tigers
Banned
The Henry was a militarily poor weapon, and Shermans opinion that repeaters simply added to the speed troops were able to fire off all their ammo without aiming so they could leave the battleline is probably accurate.
Repeaters are not a particularly great increase in combat power (sustained ROF is similar for example) until clips/ magazine rifles are invented about 30 years hence.
67th Tigers
Banned
However, without a huge unemployed workforce (that the ACW created), the Trans-continental railroad will be slow, and will probably mainly be built from the California end.
In any case the northern route will be the more important one. In the north the rails can go through a ton of eastern seaboard and midwestern cities while the southern one goes through a far lesser number of cities.
When Republicans won a plurality in the House in 1858, every significant bill they passed fell before southern votes in the Senate or a Presidential veto. The Federal Government reached a stalemate. Bitter hostility between Republicans and Southern members prevailed on the floor of Congress.
To prevent a 1860 sucession, you would have to prevent the OTL 1860 result where this Plurality became a majority.
It was this great increase of Rupublican Office holders at both ?Federal and State levels that triggered the Walkout.
Even if you can hold it together in 1860, I don't see how you can prevent, an 1862, or 1864, Walkout. You don't make it to 1868.
But the WI says 1868....... .So ...........
Between 1800 & 1830 most of the Available [non land or slave] Capital in the South went into expanding the Transportation system --IE Canals.
When the canal companies went bankrucpt in the 1830's they took this Capital; with them.
[Most of those canals are part of the Inter coastal Waterways today]
By the late 1850's this was in the past, and the South had a Pool of Capital to work with again.
Most of this was again in trasportation [ie Railroads] not in large companies like JP Morgan, but smaller local companies,
But some was going into Industries.
There are problems [involing Feeding, Clothing, Housing] with a Slave operated Factory inside a city, that you don't have, in a Rural setting.
By 1860 a lot of these problem had been solved, and the first Slave Factories were starting to show some Profits.
Given another 8 years, there would have been a lot more development, in the south.
As president James Buchanan, believed that using the power of the Federal Government to prevent Sucession was Unconsitutional
With Buchanan unwilling to act, President Elect Lincoln did.
Ordering the Federal troops in Baltimore [following the Assianation attemp] to occupy Annaopolis to prevent Sucession.
And ordering the Evacuation, of Norfolk and Hampton Road, and the burning of the Facilities there.
Now I don't see Steward with a second term given the compromising in 1862, And Debate/Positions on Mexico.
So some one else in 1864. ?Any Ideas for Whom?
Almost anyone else would react different than Buchannan.
So .. Dec 1868 South Carolina Suceeds, Followed by six other slave states seceded, the Confederacy was formed, all arsenals and forts in the seceded states were lost (except Fort Sumter and two remote ones), and a fourth of all federal soldiers surrendered to Texas troops. The government decided to hold on to Fort Sumter, which was located in Charleston harbor, the most visible spot in the Confederacy. On January 5, President ???????? sent a civilian steamer Star of the West to carry reinforcements and supplies to Fort Sumter. On January 9, 1869, South Carolina state batteries opened fire on the Star of the West, which returned to New York.
President ??????????? Adresses Congress asking for funds and Men to put down the rebellion.
When The incoming President takes Office in March, the war is two Months old.
To prevent a 1860 sucession, you would have to prevent the OTL 1860 result where this Plurality became a majority.
It was this great increase of Rupublican Office holders at both ?Federal and State levels that triggered the Walkout.
Even if you can hold it together in 1860, I don't see how you can prevent, an 1862, or 1864, Walkout. You don't make it to 1868.
But the WI says 1868....... .So ...........
Between 1800 & 1830 most of the Available [non land or slave] Capital in the South went into expanding the Transportation system --IE Canals.
When the canal companies went bankrucpt in the 1830's they took this Capital; with them.
[Most of those canals are part of the Inter coastal Waterways today]
By the late 1850's this was in the past, and the South had a Pool of Capital to work with again.
Most of this was again in trasportation [ie Railroads] not in large companies like JP Morgan, but smaller local companies,
But some was going into Industries.
There are problems [involing Feeding, Clothing, Housing] with a Slave operated Factory inside a city, that you don't have, in a Rural setting.
By 1860 a lot of these problem had been solved, and the first Slave Factories were starting to show some Profits.
Given another 8 years, there would have been a lot more development, in the south.
As president James Buchanan, believed that using the power of the Federal Government to prevent Sucession was Unconsitutional
With Buchanan unwilling to act, President Elect Lincoln did.
Ordering the Federal troops in Baltimore [following the Assianation attemp] to occupy Annaopolis to prevent Sucession.
And ordering the Evacuation, of Norfolk and Hampton Road, and the burning of the Facilities there.
Now I don't see Steward with a second term given the compromising in 1862, And Debate/Positions on Mexico.
So some one else in 1864. ?Any Ideas for Whom?
Almost anyone else would react different than Buchannan.
So .. Dec 1868 South Carolina Suceeds, Followed by six other slave states seceded, the Confederacy was formed, all arsenals and forts in the seceded states were lost (except Fort Sumter and two remote ones), and a fourth of all federal soldiers surrendered to Texas troops. The government decided to hold on to Fort Sumter, which was located in Charleston harbor, the most visible spot in the Confederacy. On January 5, President ???????? sent a civilian steamer Star of the West to carry reinforcements and supplies to Fort Sumter. On January 9, 1869, South Carolina state batteries opened fire on the Star of the West, which returned to New York.
President ??????????? Adresses Congress asking for funds and Men to put down the rebellion.
When The incoming President takes Office in March, the war is two Months old.
If Lincoln doesn't win in 1860 then there obviously will not be a civil war. Say Breckenridge wins by having both Douglas and Bell drop out or not run at all and have Breckenridge win both Ohio and Indiana (both of which were close races). He would have won 166-138. Let's say he runs again in 1864 and wins that as well. Now the south will not secede when there is a southerner in the White House as he can veto any law that he thinks injures the South. In 1868 Seward beats some southerner for the presidency.
Not nearly enough as all the new immigrants will still go north so they don't have to compete with slave labor.
Anything I Give You, I Give Him Double!
I agree - the country as a whole will be eight years richer if the ACW is delayed. However, any benefits coming to the South (population, industrialization, infrastructure) are going to come in even greater measure to the North.
Might be interesting to see where the military leaders are by that time:
I agree - the country as a whole will be eight years richer if the ACW is delayed. However, any benefits coming to the South (population, industrialization, infrastructure) are going to come in even greater measure to the North.
Might be interesting to see where the military leaders are by that time:
- Winfield Scott: certainly retired, probably dead (died OTL 1866)
- George McClellan: in private business; quickly recruited (as he was in OTL 1861), probably moves up the ladder quickly
- Ulysses S. Grant: Eight years longer out of the Army and eight years more obscure than he was in OTL 1861; may or may not rise to prominence
- Henry Halleck: possible successor to Scott
- William T. Sherman: possibly an much more spectacular defection from the South than he was in 1861; also possible that eight years mellowed him out and made him a Southern general (although I doubt it)
- Winfield Scott Hancock: possibly ends up an army commander in the North
- George Meade: probably still ends up with a corps or army command in the North
- Robert E. Lee: possible successor to Scott, although he would be near the end of his career
- Albert Sidney Johnston: probably retired, although he'd likely have returned from retirement
- James Longstreet: possibly ends up an army commander in the CSA
- JEB Stuart: ditto
- Pierre Beauregard: possibly ends up with a more prominent command for the entire war
You forgot Sheridan who OTL ended up the General of the Army for over 30 years post CW.
He is my pick for Commander of the Army of the Potomac if Virginia Joins the Confeds.
Not a done deal -- as it was Iffy in 1860, and by 1868 Virginia would be the most Industrialized Southern state.
?If no AoP, What would be the main Force in the "Army of the US"? -- Remembre there was no "US Army" at this time.
Yep, since he was born in 1807 he was 61 years old in 1868. Are you going to make a 61 year old a field commander?
Yeah, he may have taken the job for a few years and then retired.
I can see him as strategic advisor but not field commander. He was saying he was starting to feel his age even in 1863, this is 5 years later. Being a field commander takes a physical toll on you. You have to be able to sleep short hours, take long forced marches and to react to situations quickly if need be. This doesn't even count the amount of stress you are under. You are asking an awful lot out of a 61 year old man.
Sorry, not very clear - had to stop and coach homework. Lee in 1868 - if still in the military - would have been much as was Scott in 1861. He might have been titular Commanding General, but he for practical purposes would have been looking for some field commanders to lead whichever side he took.
Then again, he might have retired - he had a farm to manage, and a family which could have used him around the home.
Then again, he might have retired - he had a farm to manage, and a family which could have used him around the home.