"City on the Edge of Forever"

OK, here is the quotes from the "City on the edge of Forever"...

SPOCK: This is how history went after McCoy changed it. Here, in the late 1930s. A growing pacifist movement whose influence delayed the United States' entry into the Second World War. While peace negotiations dragged on, Germany had time to complete its heavy-water experiments.
KIRK: Germany. Fascism. Hitler. They won the Second World War.
SPOCK: Because all this lets them develop the A-bomb first. There's no mistake, Captain. Let me run it again. Edith Keeler. Founder of the peace movement.
KIRK: But she was right. Peace was the way.
SPOCK: She was right, but at the wrong time. With the A-bomb, and with their V2 rockets to carry them, Germany captured the world.

Any ideas on how to get from "point A to point B" without the use of Flying Mammals? (note, I don't...). Was a V2 rocket capable of carrying a nuclear weapon? What sort of Peace Negotiations???
 
A V2 rocket neither had the necessary range, nor payload capacity to deliver contemporary nuclear warheads. If the Nazis really push their rocket and a-bomb projects, they might have some basic ICBMs in the mid-to-late '50s, but not before.

Regarding the Peace Negotiations, though, it might be possible that Britain sues for peace sometime in '40 or '41 if there is no help (including no lend-lease) coming from the US.

- Kelenas
 

Sachyriel

Banned
It's a TV show, they have to dumb it down for the audience; No mention of the USSR, something important likely happened there in TTL but the writers couldn't think of enough Handwavium to talk about it, so they left it out and gave the audience some plausible things to think about: Pacifism, Hitler, Nukes, Rockets. The bigger picture isn't described here, but it's plausible enough for the public to buy into it for the sake of suspending disbelief.
 
It's a TV show, they have to dumb it down for the audience; No mention of the USSR, something important likely happened there in TTL but the writers couldn't think of enough Handwavium to talk about it, so they left it out and gave the audience some plausible things to think about: Pacifism, Hitler, Nukes, Rockets. The bigger picture isn't described here, but it's plausible enough for the public to buy into it for the sake of suspending disbelief.

Agreed. Reminds me of another OST series programme with based on the Nazis. There a planet they discover with a Nazi type regime running riot and they find out it's been developed by a Star Trek exile. His excuse was that the planet was facing serious problems and he wanted a system that was "highly efficient" and thought he could duplicate that without including the homicidal viciousness. At the time, to a youngster in the late 60's it seemed like an accurate representation, i.e. that despite their viciousness the Nazis were very efficient.

Of course long since my interest in history has shown me they were only efficient in one thing, displaying a pretence of efficiency. Unfortunately I fear that most people still have the initial delusion.:(:(

Steve
 
Maybe have Hitler not pooh-pooh nuclear physics as the "Jewish science"?

But if the POD is McCoy saving Edith Keeler who creates a pacifist movement in the US, how would that influence that? We're obviously having few butterflies, because Kirk and Spock were later able to restore the original timeline by going back in time themselves.

Though, you might be onto something - maybe after saving Edith, McCoy talked a bit too loosely about nuclear physics in the hearing of some Nazis or other "properly Aryan" scientists?
 
We're obviously having few butterflies, because Kirk and Spock were later able to restore the original timeline by going back in time themselves.

Oh, there were plenty of butterflies. After McCoy disappeared into the archway, the Enterprise suddenly disappeared from orbit, having been erased from existence. Kirk and Spock were only still around to go back and fix things because they were protected by some sort of timey-wimey field around the Guardian.

Apparently, Ellison's original treatments for the script had no explanation for why Edith was so important to history (in other words, it was just butterflies). Which brings support to mmmeee0's dumb-it-down hypothesis. Although, the POD was possibly also added to the script as a sort of speech against the anti-war movements of the time.
 
Maybe Spock just wasn't very knowledgeable about Earth history and misinterpreted what he saw through the Guardian? I mean, the man didn't even know the difference between World War III and the 1990s Eugenics War.
 
Agreed. Reminds me of another OST series programme with based on the Nazis. There a planet they discover with a Nazi type regime running riot and they find out it's been developed by a Star Trek exile. His excuse was that the planet was facing serious problems and he wanted a system that was "highly efficient" and thought he could duplicate that without including the homicidal viciousness. At the time, to a youngster in the late 60's it seemed like an accurate representation, i.e. that despite their viciousness the Nazis were very efficient.

Of course long since my interest in history has shown me they were only efficient in one thing, displaying a pretence of efficiency. Unfortunately I fear that most people still have the initial delusion.:(:(

Steve

I just thought it was meta-funny to see Bones and Spock all kitted out in SS gear in that episode.
 
I wonder how Edith Keeler felt? After all, here she was as a pacifist who helped hand the world over to the Nazis...did she go into hiding or become part of a resistance movement? I'd like to see a ST novel showing an alternate history that shows what happened to her in the other timeline...

According to the original script Kirk and crew return to a different ship called the Condor, while in the revised version (which I do think is better despite Ellison's legendary complaints) space flight never develops and the world basically gets thrown into a new dark age trying to overthrow the Nazis.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The V2 was capable of carrying a late 2nd generation nuclear weapon. It had a 2,000 pound war load. The U.S. Mk 7 was 1,700 pound. It was also not in use until 1952.

The V2 (aka the A4) also had a range of just at 200 miles (320KM). Don't rule the world with this sort of weapon. Even with nukes (maybe especially with nukes) that sort of range just pisses folks off.
 
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