Cinco de Mayo

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HIM Dogson

naraht said:
In terms of bloodlust, the Sack of Washington probably turns it up to 11. I'm not honestly sure iOTL what the single military event in the history of the US that led to the most American women being raped. My *guesses* are either the Fall of the Philippines *or* some battle with Native Americans (and no, I don't know if that would be by US Army soldiers on Native American Women or by a group of Native American men on White women, my guess is the first). I'm not sure any of these are anywhere near the Sack of Washington.
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It really says something that the two most traumatic events in US history are Pearl Harbor and 9/11- both events had less than 10,000 casualties; Churchill's line about more British civilians being killed by the Germans every day than American civilians died in Pearl Harbor comes to mind. Washington blows Pearl and 9/11 put together out of the water. I might be optimistic here, but I think that the mutual rage white and black Americans feel towards the CSA ttl might genuinely be a huge help for race relations. Consider the impact that war against the racism of the Third Reich had on US race relations, and that was without the Wehrmacht committing atrocities against White American civilians.
 

naraht

HIM Dogson said:
It really says something that the two most traumatic events in US history are Pearl Harbor and 9/11- both events had less than 10,000 casualties; Churchill's line about more British civilians being killed by the Germans every day than American civilians died in Pearl Harbor comes to mind. Washington blows Pearl and 9/11 put together out of the water. I might be optimistic here, but I think that the mutual rage white and black Americans feel towards the CSA ttl might genuinely be a huge help for race relations. Consider the impact that war against the racism of the Third Reich had on US race relations, and that was without the Wehrmacht committing atrocities against White American civilians.
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This is also front and center for the European ambassadors. This isn't happening on the Arizona/New Mexico border, this is (probably) within 5 miles of where the European ambassadors have their homes and I could see some of them getting caught up in this. I know the OP has said that the Europeans don't get involved, but frankly an ATL iTTL where the wife of the British Ambassador is one of those raped would be interesting in a "Does the RN go after the Mexican Navy before or after every Confederate Navy ship is on the bottom of the oceans" sort of way.

Though... I would imagine that the US has diplomatic relations with Haiti (and maybe Ethiopia). I wonder what the Confederates would do if they caught the Haitian ambassador, probably what they do what they did with every other black person in Washington. I'm not sure it makes much difference to the balance between BS and the Axis if Haiti becomes a minor Axis ally rather than an Axis leaning neutral. (As *Haiti* gets the Florida Keys in the treaties. :) )
 

HIM Dogson

naraht said:
This is also front and center for the European ambassadors. This isn't happening on the Arizona/New Mexico border, this is (probably) within 5 miles of where the European ambassadors have their homes and I could see some of them getting caught up in this. I know the OP has said that the Europeans don't get involved, but frankly an ATL iTTL where the wife of the British Ambassador is one of those raped would be interesting in a "Does the RN go after the Mexican Navy before or after every Confederate Navy ship is on the bottom of the oceans" sort of way.

Though... I would imagine that the US has diplomatic relations with Haiti (and maybe Ethiopia). I wonder what the Confederates would do if they caught the Haitian ambassador, probably what they do what they did with every other black person in Washington. I'm not sure it makes much difference to the balance between BS and the Axis if Haiti becomes a minor Axis ally rather than an Axis leaning neutral. (As *Haiti* gets the Florida Keys in the treaties. :) )
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We may get some John Rabe-esque stories of diplomats of other countries sheltering Black Washingtonians in their embassies- there are a lot of embassies just north of Georgetown so it wouldn't be that hard to escape there. The Ottoman and Japanese embassies might be especially willing to provide shelter; it would make for a good Oscarbait movie at least.
 
Reisen Storm

Reisen Storm

HIM Dogson said:
here are a lot of embassies just north of Georgetown so it wouldn't be that hard to escape there. The Ottoman and Japanese embassies might be especially willing to provide shelter;
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I wonder if any CSA officers would be dumb enough and attack those embassies just to get black civilians.
 

naraht

Reisen Storm said:
I wonder if any CSA officers would be dumb enough and attack those embassies just to get black civilians.
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Um. That would be an act of war. (I believe the original poster has said that no nation outside the Americas becomes involved, so unless it is one of the nations that are neutral/Axis leaning at this point, it isn't going to happen). Stray shells, that's understandable. Confederate military troops acting under command, that's *very* close to an act of war.
 
SWS

SWS

DanMcCollum said:
Well, I think the US is going to be very hesitant to take any territory which already has a large population of hostile Confederates within it - it may nibble off a bit here or there where it's strategically intelligent, but trying to swallow any large bites of territory is likely out of the question. Remember that those same ex-Confederates will have voting rights and be able to elect Congressmen who's loyalty to the US government would be dubious at best. And if one tries to solve this problem by denying them voting rights (and, by extension citizenship) that just creates a whole heap of other troubles.

One could see efforts to encourage internal migration to Kentucky to swamp it with loyal Americans; but said settlers would be moving into a land where they would be instantly hated by their neighbors as invaders, which is a less than stellar draw to would be migrants. Furthermore, even with the destruction that is likely going to occur in the territory, it would likely take decades before you the new-comers outnumbers the native Kentucks. So, at a certain point, the US has to wonder if the anneation of Kentucky is even worth it; and I doubt they would think it would be. Should they try to create an independent buffer state (which I'm not sure they would even want to do that much), they would get most of the benefits of annexing the state without any of the costs that such a move would entail.
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All valid points. It would be far more expedient and realistic for the U.S. to simply establish a system of DMZs in addition to dissolving nationalized Ordnance plants.
 

Darth_Kiryan

DanMcCollum said:
Well, I think the US is going to be very hesitant to take any territory which already has a large population of hostile Confederates within it - it may nibble off a bit here or there where it's strategically intelligent, but trying to swallow any large bites of territory is likely out of the question. Remember that those same ex-Confederates will have voting rights and be able to elect Congressmen who's loyalty to the US government would be dubious at best. And if one tries to solve this problem by denying them voting rights (and, by extension citizenship) that just creates a whole heap of other troubles.

One could see efforts to encourage internal migration to Kentucky to swamp it with loyal Americans; but said settlers would be moving into a land where they would be instantly hated by their neighbors as invaders, which is a less than stellar draw to would be migrants. Furthermore, even with the destruction that is likely going to occur in the territory, it would likely take decades before you the new-comers outnumbers the native Kentucks. So, at a certain point, the US has to wonder if the anneation of Kentucky is even worth it; and I doubt they would think it would be. Should they try to create an independent buffer state (which I'm not sure they would even want to do that much), they would get most of the benefits of annexing the state without any of the costs that such a move would entail.
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Well, extra territory in Northern Virginia Id say is a given - if just to add a buffer between Richmond and Washington, assuming the capitol still says in Washington as its been totally demolished....

Maybe Confederate New Mexico/Arizona, or whatever it is.

And also depending on how large the Republic of Texas is, they may take territory there as well...
 

PresidentZinn

Darth_Kiryan said:
Well, extra territory in Northern Virginia Id say is a given - if just to add a buffer between Richmond and Washington, assuming the capitol still says in Washington as its been totally demolished....

Maybe Confederate New Mexico/Arizona, or whatever it is.

And also depending on how large the Republic of Texas is, they may take territory there as well...
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I figure the Union would try and take some of the less populous oil rich western parts of the state as well as OTL’s Oklahoma.
 

Ran

Darth_Kiryan said:
Maximilian is still alive, isn't he? So will he try to pull a Prince Albert and border one last attempts at peace on thr continent before Mexico actually invades?
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I wonder if the early confederate successes could actually push them more towards war for fear of missing a share of the spoils.

DanMcCollum said:
[...]I'm sure they were absolutely shocked that actual civilians were attacking them in DC; that sort of thing just wasn't supposed to happen at the time (and it going to lead to some really bad reprisals, just as it did in occupied Belgium in OTL). They seem to have had a similar idea to the Japanese in WW2 in OTL; they fully understood the strength of the Union, it's population and industrial advantages and so forth. But they also thought that the Union military wasn't up to the fight and that the people were decadent and wouldn't have the stomach for the conflict. So a few strong jabs during the opening rounds should be enough to stagger the giant and bring it around to negotiate. Instead, to use one of my Da's favorite phrases, they're about to wake the sleeping giant. Which they SHOULD have known would happen; but the fact that it doesn't is perplexingly understandable when you look at their culture, history and experiences dealing with the US over the past half century.
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I think the civilians in DC understood what the Confederate army was going to do to them -- the African-Americans in particular. :(

I wonder if there were still Hague Conventions established, and if the CSA signed either? The fact that the OTL Conventions were based on the Lieber Code might have soured the CSA on signing them even if similar treaties came about TTL.

To be... fair... to the CSA leadership's view here, they have much reason to think the Union has a glass jaw than the Japanese did. It's not just their own victory ITTL -- which basically fits that to a T -- but then Chile lucked out with the mediated end to their piracy war/adventure.
 

KingSweden24

HIM Dogson said:
It really says something that the two most traumatic events in US history are Pearl Harbor and 9/11- both events had less than 10,000 casualties; Churchill's line about more British civilians being killed by the Germans every day than American civilians died in Pearl Harbor comes to mind. Washington blows Pearl and 9/11 put together out of the water. I might be optimistic here, but I think that the mutual rage white and black Americans feel towards the CSA ttl might genuinely be a huge help for race relations. Consider the impact that war against the racism of the Third Reich had on US race relations, and that was without the Wehrmacht committing atrocities against White American civilians.
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Considering how scorched earth the US went on Japan (or glassed earth, if you will) and the 20-year orgasm of hate towards the entire religion of Islam in much of US society post 9/11, just ponder what those would have been like had the IJA or Al-Qaeda started behaving like the CS just did in DC.

And yeah, I’d think it would definitely help race relations; you’d probably see the end of whatever little de jure discrimination exists in the US pretty soon thereafter
naraht said:
Um. That would be an act of war. (I believe the original poster has said that no nation outside the Americas becomes involved, so unless it is one of the nations that are neutral/Axis leaning at this point, it isn't going to happen). Stray shells, that's understandable. Confederate military troops acting under command, that's *very* close to an act of war.
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Mason Patrick would have any soldier doing this shit court martialed if not shot, probably
Darth_Kiryan said:
Oh!
@KingSweden24

Maximilian is still alive, isn't he? So will he try to pull a Prince Albert and border one last attempts at peace on thr continent before Mexico actually invades?
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He is, though he’s kinda checked out from day to day stuff, especially after how many government crises Mexico has gone through in the last few years
 
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