Status
Not open for further replies.
A few things I've wondered:

1. The Mormon Wars seem to be worse, so I am curious when Utah will become a state. I can't imagine it being that far away.

2. I think someone mentioned a while back that a potential situation of DC as a ceremonial capital and Philadelphia as a working capital at worst could be a thing. I can't imagine the US letting the capital sit destroyed and empty, particularly since the US will probably annex much of NoVa for breathing room and the confederacy will be weakened. Whatever president rebuilds DC would be able to use it for a re-election campaign as 'rebuilding patriotism' or something. If not, I am curious how Philly adapts to being turned into the capital- DC was a brand-new city, Philadelphia is rather big at this point.

3. America will probably be healthy, but what of the south? I can't imagine southern food combined with possible Mexican influences is very good for someone. Is it possible the south might be even worse than OTL? Speaking of health, an underlooked POD for the future would be the Sugar Lobby. IOTL it blocks sugar imports from abroad, making it more expensive and promoting things like HFCS.
 
A few things I've wondered:

1. The Mormon Wars seem to be worse, so I am curious when Utah will become a state. I can't imagine it being that far away.

2. I think someone mentioned a while back that a potential situation of DC as a ceremonial capital and Philadelphia as a working capital at worst could be a thing. I can't imagine the US letting the capital sit destroyed and empty, particularly since the US will probably annex much of NoVa for breathing room and the confederacy will be weakened. Whatever president rebuilds DC would be able to use it for a re-election campaign as 'rebuilding patriotism' or something. If not, I am curious how Philly adapts to being turned into the capital- DC was a brand-new city, Philadelphia is rather big at this point.

3. America will probably be healthy, but what of the south? I can't imagine southern food combined with possible Mexican influences is very good for someone. Is it possible the south might be even worse than OTL? Speaking of health, an underlooked POD for the future would be the Sugar Lobby. IOTL it blocks sugar imports from abroad, making it more expensive and promoting things like HFCS.
As someone who has not read this TL multiple times I'm going to randomly guess 1921.
 
3. America will probably be healthy, but what of the south? I can't imagine southern food combined with possible Mexican influences is very good for someone. Is it possible the south might be even worse than OTL? Speaking of health, an underlooked POD for the future would be the Sugar Lobby. IOTL it blocks sugar imports from abroad, making it more expensive and promoting things like HFCS.
Speaking of farming, I don’t see the 1930’s Dust Bowl being butterflied away in this timeline. There were specific conditions that are impossible to avoid (unusually high temperatures, lack of rainwater), and intensive-tillage farming is still happening.

And while we’re thinking about it, this war is the perfect vessel for a destructive pandemic to follow up with it, what with troops in constant movement, medical science too young, and the meatpacking industry in both countries still pretty unsanitary. Hughes is really going to wish he didn’t run for re-election.
 
Smith's only frustration was that Wadsworth had scraped by - a frustration that would be compounded by the circumstances of his budding Liberal rival's improbable survival in the 1920 Democratic landslide when Liberal colleagues left and right were being ousted by outraged voters - but the deck had seemingly been cleared on a generation of New York politics with a new generation inaugurated.
Missed this the first time reading. I always find it hilarious when there's a massive wave election and the losing party still manages to hold on (or even gain!) seats downballot. In 1936 for example, in a year where Democrats ended the night with 75 senate seats and FDR won all but two states - the GOP gained Massachussetts due to a third-party splintering the vote. In 1984, when Reagan nearly ran the table, Democrats gained seats overall in the Senate.

1984 is really interesting. Take Iowa, Illinois, and Tennessee, three states where Reagan won big and Democrats gained in the Senate
IL - Reagan won 56-43...and Paul Simon won 50-48
IA - Reagan won 53-46...and Tom Harkin won 55-43
TN - Reagan won 58-42...and Al Gore won 61-34

I know people used to ballot split all the time back in the day and I know candidate quality matters and blah blah blah...but still, how absolutely incompetent of a candidate was Victor Ashe in Tennessee?! Yes, Al Gore was a local legend and yes, Tennessee was the Solid South (although far less Solid than the rest of the South historically, Gore was running for Howard Baker's seat after all) but still, Ashe lost by ~444,000 votes in a state Reagan won by ~278,000. That's incredible, legititmately amazing.

My general point is that whoever loses to Wadsworth in NY-Sen and Michelsen in MN-Gov must be some all-time horrific candidates if they lose statewide in the bluest of blue years when their Presidential candidate is (presumably) winning their states big at the same time. Takes real effort to pull that off!
 
In later years, the Revenue Act of 1910 would be described as "the reform from which all else sprung."
I was reading through some of the older posts and came upon this particular line concerning the USA passing a peacetime progressive income tax in 1910, and was curious as to the description of the Act's passage spurring on further progressive legislation. Does this mean that the 1910 Act is the basis for a fairer, more equitable taxation system specifically, or does it also act as a basis for things like the 1915 federal workers accident insurance/compensation and other social democratic-esque laws that i presume will create TTL's welfare state in the USA?
 
A Freedom Bought With Blood: Emancipation and the Postwar Confederacy
"...increasingly radicalized groups, particularly in Boston, long regarded as the hotbed of abolitionism in the United States. Men such as Henry Cabot Lodge, a Senator for Massachusetts, roared in an address to the National Emancipation League: "The hour of penance for this continent's original sin is at hand," while former President Joseph Foraker declared to a cadre of departing University of Cincinnati students in his hometown, in one of his last addresses, "There is no more noble cause than the one upon which you now endeavor - the breaking of the shackles that enslave the North American Negro."

Cabot Lodge and Foraker were not exactly no-name fringe politicians, but their position of "total abolitionism" had long been a small minority in the Liberal Party, traditionally the one of the two major Yankee parties more sympathetic to Black concerns. However, by the autumn of 1914 the "soft abolitionism" point of view had risen to encompass a majority of Liberals and Democrats alike, though there was a disagreement on how exactly it could be achieved, as the United States began genuinely threatening Confederate territory. This is not to understate the considerable racism and prejudices of key American politicians - modern pop history that likes to post facto cast the Great American War as a noble crusade on Philadelphia's part to rid the Americas of chattel slavery is really just a post facto justification by Americans to make themselves feel better about a grievously bloody and horrifying conflict - and there was a great deal of ambivalence in many quarters of both major parties about what exactly a post-slavery world would look like, with even sympathetic voices to the slave's cause expressing remarkable doubt about what kind of society they could build after generations of bondage, plantation economy and illiteracy. Nonetheless, it had become a bipartisan general agreement that something was going to be done about slavery, and whether it was due to the moral righteousness of such a goal, because it would wreak havoc on the Confederacy and bring the war to an end more quickly, or simply because the Yankees were consumed with hatred and simply could, is perhaps immaterial.

President Charles Evans Hughes was himself a longtime "soft" on abolition, a devout Baptist who deplored the institution of slavery but had never made it a key element of his public or political persona, which makes the Confederate view that his election was part of the cause of the war as it "put a known emancipator in the White House" quite ironic. Up until mid-1914, however, he had not given much if any consideration to the slave question, concerning himself more with the immediate concern of driving the Confederacy off American soil. With American troops deep into Kentucky, besieging El Paso and occupying both banks of the Potomac by early autumn, however, the question now arose again, and Hughes went back to study the approach of Abraham Lincoln, the President during the War of Secession to explore how the matter had been handled the last time the Sister Republics had been at war.

What he found didn't help him much - the context of Lincoln's time, with slave states remaining inside the Union during the conflict who could not be provoked, did not suggest much of a course of action, and at any rate the war had ended without any kind of formal abolition, which would have to wait half a decade for Lincoln's successor Salmon Chase. But Hughes did find that Lincoln had pondered issuing a proclamation at some point over a year into the war, declaring the abolition of slavery an explicit wartime goal, a consideration that had been foreclosed upon by the defeat at Sharpsburg and Chambersburg in September of 1862.

So in a very different context from long-gone President Lincoln, Hughes issued War Directive 107 to the Secretaries of War and the Navy, to be disseminated amongst their commanders - "all Negro persons in enemy territory occupied by the United States are to be considered Free Men, regardless of their status in enemy society preceding the war." In essence, anywhere American troops were, slavery was de facto abolished, and the advance of the Army deeper into the Confederacy thus inferred that slavery would be gradually eradicated to the drumbeat of marching American boots. Abolitionists both total and soft rejoiced when word of this was quickly leaked and disseminated to the press, while the Confederate reaction was one of apoplexy, though Dixie's public opinion had long been that the United States was committed to destroying them, so Directive 107 did little but confirm to them what they already believed. [1]

Hughes' Directive 107 is a key pillar of his strong historical reputation as President, but in the immediate aftermath it had little practical effect. The United States, from the top down, still did not regard emancipating slaves as their first-order priority in the heat of war, the occupied parts of Kentucky and northern Virginia had some of the lowest ratios of enslaved persons in the Confederacy, and Confederate landowners rapidly evacuated their chattel southwards ahead of the advancing US armies. It made no proclamation as to what would occur at the end of the war, nor did it establish abolition as an explicit war goal, contrary to Confederate claims then and now. [2] It was rather a practical, pragmatic and most importantly enforceable directive, but nonetheless it was so celebrated that September 30th is still noted in many Confederate Black circles as Directive Day, particularly in Kentucky where it indeed had immediate impacts..." [3]

- A Freedom Bought With Blood: Emancipation and the Postwar Confederacy [4]

[1] Should note that due to the very different contexts of OTL's ACW and TTL's GAW, this is basically the precise opposite of the Emancipation Proclamation, a mostly unenforceable gamble by Lincoln that declared all slaves in unoccupied territory that was in rebellion were now considered free; this basically says that slaves in occupied territory, where the US can actually free them and enforce said freedom, are now emancipated.
[2] I'm focusing on Confederate reactions here so much because this book is, in the end, about the end of slavery in the Confederate States; think of his update, and some to follow, as prologues or early chapters in it
[3] More on that later - was originally to be the focus of this update, but I decided the thought process of and reaction to Hughes and the rest of US leadership coming around to an alt-Emancipation Proclamation was more important to set the scene first
[4] Decided to scrap Beyond Bondage moving forward, since we've been following that book since the 1860s or thereabouts. I wanted to tell a story now more specific to the Black experience of the immediate war years and their aftermath
 
Men such as Henry Cabot Lodge, a Senator for Massachusetts, roared in an address to the National Emancipation League: "The hour of penance for this continent's original sin is at hand,"
You are gonna have to search far and wide to find someone who hates Henry Cabot Lodge more than me but props to him for being on the right side of history for decades at this point.

Good stuff!
 
Missed this the first time reading. I always find it hilarious when there's a massive wave election and the losing party still manages to hold on (or even gain!) seats downballot.
This always happens. It's how electoral politics works.
You are gonna have to search far and wide to find someone who hates Henry Cabot Lodge more than me but props to him for being on the right side of history for decades at this point.

Good stuff!
I genuinely don't understand how someone could be such a strong proponent of Black civil rights and simultaneously believe some of the extremely racist shit he dealt in. Takes a truly special blend of awful for a pre-1940's supporters of civil rights (and a staunch one at that!) to be among the worst U.S. senators.
 
You are gonna have to search far and wide to find someone who hates Henry Cabot Lodge more than me but props to him for being on the right side of history for decades at this point.

Good stuff!
This guy is really something.
From "I'm going to be the most obstinate asshole possible" to "I'm a moral paradigm of abolition"
 
This evening I drove from Northern Virginia (on the DC Beltway) across Montgomery and Howard Counties to the Baltimore beltway and then to an event Northwest of Baltimore and then back to my house...

A few thoughts came to mind.
1) Baltimore will probably come back to some degree. It is fulfilling the role of Warsaw in This war, but like Warsaw, I think it will come back. Frederick and Annapolis as well.
2) When the capital gets moved to Philadelphia, DC will be given back to Maryland, I guess.
3) The chances of Arlington (and various adjoining areas) remaining as part of the CSA is small, but TBD whether it will be part of Maryland , West Virginia, or something else. 4)Any chance of the constitution getting changed to create a "Remembrance Zone" for DC and the area around it?
5) Maryland in the 1920 census will probably see a greater population percentage drop than any state has had iOTL. My honest guess is that the Maryland population in 1920 will be half what it was in 1910. (In terms of USA civilian deaths, my guess is that it will look something like 62% MD, 20% PA, 15% DC, 3% Other.)
6) If we have Washington and Baltimore fulfilling the roles of Warsaw and St. Petersburg(the second to some extent) of OTL, I'm wondering if that will go the other way. (Neither Warsaw nor St. Petersburg seeing *any* war through the 21st century) If there is one that has both Germany and Russia, they'd have to be on the same side and given the dismemberment of AH and the fact that France apparently remains knocked to the bottom end of great powers, it would have to be almost *everyone* against DE & RU (UK,FR, IT, whatever AH turns into, OE and probably the Americans as well) for the DE/RU alliance to be at risk.

Makes me wonder, iOTL, is there any city that has been a National Capital of an independent state longer than Washington DC that hasn't seen war damage since 1815? Stockholm? (I'm not counting Iceland as having been independent)
A “rememberance zone” under federal purview, like an ur-Arlington/ur-Gettysburg, is certainly a novel idea.

Germany and Russia will, eventually, start having more divergent interests, especially once Russia “turns” back from Asia, but we’re a long ways off from that.
Stockholm is probably the only one.
Copenhagen? I know they were taken over by the Nazis, but I'm not sure that damage there was significant at any time during WWII (Did the allies bomb it?)
Switzerland also, maybe.
Lisbon too right? Unless I'm missing something post-Napoleon
Lot of violence during the Revolution of 1910 iirc but not “war” levels
Just a quick note: I think US cuisine culture will revolve around the local deli or diner for quick and cheap meals. Be it Jewish, German or Irish or a mixture of the three or more. Soul-food may still be limited to Black communities or rural communities at first but Fried Chicken will come around once someone develops pressure cooking it. Dishes like Dirty Rice or Gumbo will be the first seen as 'poor man's food'. Barbeque will be more of a Southern and Mexican dish but there may be some Caribbean influence in the US post war.
Agreed. Deli/diner culture would be huge across the US, maybe a bit more diverse in meals but one of those unique Americana things (also I have a soft spot for diners, especially diner breakfast, so it appeals to me anyways)
A few things I've wondered:

1. The Mormon Wars seem to be worse, so I am curious when Utah will become a state. I can't imagine it being that far away.

2. I think someone mentioned a while back that a potential situation of DC as a ceremonial capital and Philadelphia as a working capital at worst could be a thing. I can't imagine the US letting the capital sit destroyed and empty, particularly since the US will probably annex much of NoVa for breathing room and the confederacy will be weakened. Whatever president rebuilds DC would be able to use it for a re-election campaign as 'rebuilding patriotism' or something. If not, I am curious how Philly adapts to being turned into the capital- DC was a brand-new city, Philadelphia is rather big at this point.

3. America will probably be healthy, but what of the south? I can't imagine southern food combined with possible Mexican influences is very good for someone. Is it possible the south might be even worse than OTL? Speaking of health, an underlooked POD for the future would be the Sugar Lobby. IOTL it blocks sugar imports from abroad, making it more expensive and promoting things like HFCS.
Part of the fun of exploring “what if Capital in Philly” is the knock-on effects it has on the city itself. A dual-capital set up like SA is an idea though DC would probably remain purely ceremonial in that regard (inaugurations, memorials, etc)
As someone who has not read this TL multiple times I'm going to randomly guess 1921.
That’s the year I have pinned down for it
Speaking of farming, I don’t see the 1930’s Dust Bowl being butterflied away in this timeline. There were specific conditions that are impossible to avoid (unusually high temperatures, lack of rainwater), and intensive-tillage farming is still happening.

And while we’re thinking about it, this war is the perfect vessel for a destructive pandemic to follow up with it, what with troops in constant movement, medical science too young, and the meatpacking industry in both countries still pretty unsanitary. Hughes is really going to wish he didn’t run for re-election.
Well, the epicenter of the Dust Bowl wouldn’t be western OK, since that area is so much less populated. But yeah, you’d still have a pretty bad situation in much of Kansas, parts of Colorado, Texas Panhandle… it’d be pretty rough
Missed this the first time reading. I always find it hilarious when there's a massive wave election and the losing party still manages to hold on (or even gain!) seats downballot. In 1936 for example, in a year where Democrats ended the night with 75 senate seats and FDR won all but two states - the GOP gained Massachussetts due to a third-party splintering the vote. In 1984, when Reagan nearly ran the table, Democrats gained seats overall in the Senate.

1984 is really interesting. Take Iowa, Illinois, and Tennessee, three states where Reagan won big and Democrats gained in the Senate
IL - Reagan won 56-43...and Paul Simon won 50-48
IA - Reagan won 53-46...and Tom Harkin won 55-43
TN - Reagan won 58-42...and Al Gore won 61-34

I know people used to ballot split all the time back in the day and I know candidate quality matters and blah blah blah...but still, how absolutely incompetent of a candidate was Victor Ashe in Tennessee?! Yes, Al Gore was a local legend and yes, Tennessee was the Solid South (although far less Solid than the rest of the South historically, Gore was running for Howard Baker's seat after all) but still, Ashe lost by ~444,000 votes in a state Reagan won by ~278,000. That's incredible, legititmately amazing.

My general point is that whoever loses to Wadsworth in NY-Sen and Michelsen in MN-Gov must be some all-time horrific candidates if they lose statewide in the bluest of blue years when their Presidential candidate is (presumably) winning their states big at the same time. Takes real effort to pull that off!
1984 is a very good example, just some utterly bizarre election results. That’s not entirely unheard of with Gov elections even today but in the Senate there used to be ticket splitting against the grain
I was reading through some of the older posts and came upon this particular line concerning the USA passing a peacetime progressive income tax in 1910, and was curious as to the description of the Act's passage spurring on further progressive legislation. Does this mean that the 1910 Act is the basis for a fairer, more equitable taxation system specifically, or does it also act as a basis for things like the 1915 federal workers accident insurance/compensation and other social democratic-esque laws that i presume will create TTL's welfare state in the USA?
Bit of both. Basically, there not being any Pollock or Lochner rulings, even with a fairly conservative Supreme Court (those rulings were heavily criticized even by some judicial conservatives back then) creates a huge leg up for more progressive legislation moving forward and doesn’t set things back a whole generation
Incredible! The United states really are primming themselves up.
The Yanks are coming and they're singing John Brown's Body.
Certainly!
You are gonna have to search far and wide to find someone who hates Henry Cabot Lodge more than me but props to him for being on the right side of history for decades at this point.

Good stuff!
Relevant
This always happens. It's how electoral politics works.

I genuinely don't understand how someone could be such a strong proponent of Black civil rights and simultaneously believe some of the extremely racist shit he dealt in. Takes a truly special blend of awful for a pre-1940's supporters of civil rights (and a staunch one at that!) to be among the worst U.S. senators.
This guy is really something.
From "I'm going to be the most obstinate asshole possible" to "I'm a moral paradigm of abolition"
I think a lot of OTL Republicans of that time genuinely took pride in their party’s role in ending slavery and Lincoln’s legacy, and viewed American citizens by right of birth being grievously oppressed and denied their constitutional rights in the South as being very distinct from “those people” coming from overseas. It’s probably no accident (at least it’s colored my thinking in developing the Liberals) that Black Americans were largely Protestant and already spoke English (though often illiterate), as opposed to Catholics or Jews who don’t speak English and are illiterate even in their own tongue.

Also, perhaps more cynically, Black Americans were reliable Republican voters back then and you could credibly threaten the Solid South if they were enfranchised…
 
Would Negroes in the US be willing to form volunteer groups to assist in helping liberated slaves? Would liberated men in the new liberated territories be allowed to keep arms?
 
Would Negroes in the US be willing to form volunteer groups to assist in helping liberated slaves? Would liberated men in the new liberated territories be allowed to keep arms?
I'm sure if the US wants to really strike fear into the hearts of Johnny Reb they could have some all black "stormtrooper" units. Sprinkle in some Haitian volunteers for good measure.
 
Would Negroes in the US be willing to form volunteer groups to assist in helping liberated slaves?
I believe that the African American community would indeed see a lot of support for helping liberated slaves. I can see entire charitable organizations created specifically to help former slaves learn how live as free people.

I'm sure if the US wants to really strike fear into the hearts of Johnny Reb they could have some all black "stormtrooper" units. Sprinkle in some Haitian volunteers for good measure.
I wonder if there is any stream of Black volunteer fighters coming to fight in the GAW from other nations? I could see volunteers coming from Haiti, Cuba, Canada and elsewhere in the Americas.

Would liberated men in the new liberated territories be allowed to keep arms?
It would make a lot of sense to arm the freed slaves, they could help free up American manpower from having to guard supply lines in American occupied territory.
 
I believe that the African American community would indeed see a lot of support for helping liberated slaves. I can see entire charitable organizations created specifically to help former slaves learn how live as free people.


I wonder if there is any stream of Black volunteer fighters coming to fight in the GAW from other nations? I could see volunteers coming from Haiti, Cuba, Canada and elsewhere in the Americas.


It would make a lot of sense to arm the freed slaves, they could help free up American manpower from having to guard supply lines in American occupied territory.
It would not take a lot for the pre-war organizations designed to help the Slaves who escaped the CSA to change to supporting those in freed CSA territory.

Haiti got mentioned for the first time in a while in the Navy chapter. Theoretically as a neutral, a passenger ship should be able to go from Haiti to Philadelphia without risk. However, the CSN may not really view Haiti as a neutral. However if that ship was German or Dutch flagged. I could even see some in Africa itself volunteering, especially from Liberia. BTW, what's going on with Ethiopia?

I would imagine there are *quite* a few freed slaves that would be quite willing to take a gun to guard locations on the USA supply lines in Kentucky, *especially* if they could take family with them. I don't expect the same in Virginia, only because the supply lines back to the US would be shorter and would likely have reserve troops sitting on every piece of land back to the Potomac River.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top