He really wasn't conservative, though. He was still by and large left-wing, but with a lot of authoritarian and demagogic tendencies.
Cinco de Mayo
- Thread starter KingSweden24
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Yeah, definitely left-wing (particularly by Southern standards) but a notch or two short of entertaining genuine socialism, and definitely an outright authoritarian.
Hence, a man in the mold of a Juan Peron/Lazaro Cardenas/Getulio Vargas mass politics mold. All three of those men were ideologically fairly fluid but definitely a sharp break from the more conservative, staid and rapidly ossifying traditions of the past
Left-wing governments are no stranger to moralizing crusades. Gorbachev banned booze in the USSR after all (which went about how you'd expect for him)
I cannot wait to see Long eventually show up and work his way to become President after the Great American War. CSA politics will not know what hit it when the Kingfish comes to Richmond that's for sure
Pershing
"...and establishing his headquarters and reserve arsenal at Indio, where the California National Guard had been consolidated at makeshift barracks along the rail route to the Colorado. Pershing appointed Charles Menoher, a former West Point classmate, as his chief subordinate, and was asked by California Governor Hiram Johnson to wait to press on offensively until the commander of the National Guard was dispatched. Upon hearing that said commander would be a political appointment - Congressman Joseph Knowland, who represented a district centered upon Alameda County on the San Francisco Bay - Pershing elected to press ahead. As American defenses in Maryland seemed to evaporate at the slightest contact from Confederate forces, a victory needed to be secured on some front, somewhere.
Yuma was the natural target, both for Pershing's gathering battalions in Indio and from a broader strategic standpoint. Word that Mexico had declared war on the United States arrived at Indio and it did not take too many glances at a map of North America's strategic rail network to figure out where they could make an impact. From railheads at Nogales and Los Pasos, Mexican forces could fortify the Confederate West and, potentially, harass or even attack New Mexico or, less likely, California. One priority for Mexico would almost certainly getting some of their troops to the isolated northern outposts of Baja California and the carnival town of Tijuana on the border [1], which Marines from San Diego had rapidly moved to seize within days of the declaration of war with minimal resistance. The immediate, if minor, threat to America's position in the West thus came from access to the Colorado and its delta, control that flowed through Yuma.
The Confederacy had done considerable work over the past decade in making Yuma into a thriving commercial town; though the frontier of both countries was definitively closed, the West was an area of growth and opportunity. Until the trade wars of the early 1910s, Yuma had been the main conduit for Confederate wares and goods to the Pacific, either down steamboats on the Colorado into the Gulf of California or, eventually, by rail to Los Angeles or San Diego. It sat at the confluence of the Gila with the larger Colorado and the tripoint border of the Confederacy, United States and Mexico. The logistical value of the city was thus considerable, and it would be a target that would certainly grab Richmond's attention. On September 20th, at the same time that the Army was forming its official theater commands from the wartime capital in Philadelphia [2], Pershing had his railcars collected and gave the command to move forward to attack the following day.
Yuma was defended by a namesake fort on the banks of the Colorado itself, where the railroad crossed the river, garrisoned by approximately two thousand men. Early on the morning of the 21st, Pershing's mobile artillery opened fire across the Colorado, the first pitched battle of the Southwestern Front. One of the advantages the Confederacy did have, compared to their attackers, was a robust fixed artillery position and machine gun nests at Fort Yuma that allowed them to screen the rail crossing at the river. Pershing pressed ahead anyways, hoping that his suppressing fire would be sufficient; Menoher expressed skepticism at this maneuver but gave the orders anyways.
The Battle of Yuma was thus typical of a Pershing battle; aggressive and with willingness to take casualties in order to overwhelm the enemy with relentless force. [3] Two thousand American casualties were sustained in the crossing of the Colorado, with the typical 25% killed-in-action ratio. However, Yuma fell before nightfall as the artillery support eventually destroyed two of the de Bange 90mm guns, diminishing Confederate defensive capabilities, and most of surviving Confederate delegation surrendered rather than fight on once the bridgehead was established. Pershing ordered the California Guardsmen transport the prisoners back to Indio, which would be the site of "Camp Pershing," a major Confederate prisoner-of-war camp later converted to a fort in the aftermath of the war.
The first major victory for the US of the war had been won - the Colorado was now entirely under the control of the United States, and the threat to California or western New Mexico effectively negated within the opening weeks of the conflict..."
- Pershing
[1] Even in the early 1910s, Tijuana basically existed for Americans to come to engage in various forms of debauchery
[2] "Wartime"
[3] This is something Black Jack was kind of infamous for in WW1; it wasn't quite the human waves of the Soviets in WW2 but he was a huge fan of frontal attacks. Pershing was a mediocre tactician but a very good political general in terms of his role as head of the AEF, IMO, but the conditions in the Southwest are very different from the Western Front of 1918 so his more aggressive offensive style would work better here.
Yuma was the natural target, both for Pershing's gathering battalions in Indio and from a broader strategic standpoint. Word that Mexico had declared war on the United States arrived at Indio and it did not take too many glances at a map of North America's strategic rail network to figure out where they could make an impact. From railheads at Nogales and Los Pasos, Mexican forces could fortify the Confederate West and, potentially, harass or even attack New Mexico or, less likely, California. One priority for Mexico would almost certainly getting some of their troops to the isolated northern outposts of Baja California and the carnival town of Tijuana on the border [1], which Marines from San Diego had rapidly moved to seize within days of the declaration of war with minimal resistance. The immediate, if minor, threat to America's position in the West thus came from access to the Colorado and its delta, control that flowed through Yuma.
The Confederacy had done considerable work over the past decade in making Yuma into a thriving commercial town; though the frontier of both countries was definitively closed, the West was an area of growth and opportunity. Until the trade wars of the early 1910s, Yuma had been the main conduit for Confederate wares and goods to the Pacific, either down steamboats on the Colorado into the Gulf of California or, eventually, by rail to Los Angeles or San Diego. It sat at the confluence of the Gila with the larger Colorado and the tripoint border of the Confederacy, United States and Mexico. The logistical value of the city was thus considerable, and it would be a target that would certainly grab Richmond's attention. On September 20th, at the same time that the Army was forming its official theater commands from the wartime capital in Philadelphia [2], Pershing had his railcars collected and gave the command to move forward to attack the following day.
Yuma was defended by a namesake fort on the banks of the Colorado itself, where the railroad crossed the river, garrisoned by approximately two thousand men. Early on the morning of the 21st, Pershing's mobile artillery opened fire across the Colorado, the first pitched battle of the Southwestern Front. One of the advantages the Confederacy did have, compared to their attackers, was a robust fixed artillery position and machine gun nests at Fort Yuma that allowed them to screen the rail crossing at the river. Pershing pressed ahead anyways, hoping that his suppressing fire would be sufficient; Menoher expressed skepticism at this maneuver but gave the orders anyways.
The Battle of Yuma was thus typical of a Pershing battle; aggressive and with willingness to take casualties in order to overwhelm the enemy with relentless force. [3] Two thousand American casualties were sustained in the crossing of the Colorado, with the typical 25% killed-in-action ratio. However, Yuma fell before nightfall as the artillery support eventually destroyed two of the de Bange 90mm guns, diminishing Confederate defensive capabilities, and most of surviving Confederate delegation surrendered rather than fight on once the bridgehead was established. Pershing ordered the California Guardsmen transport the prisoners back to Indio, which would be the site of "Camp Pershing," a major Confederate prisoner-of-war camp later converted to a fort in the aftermath of the war.
The first major victory for the US of the war had been won - the Colorado was now entirely under the control of the United States, and the threat to California or western New Mexico effectively negated within the opening weeks of the conflict..."
- Pershing
[1] Even in the early 1910s, Tijuana basically existed for Americans to come to engage in various forms of debauchery
[2] "Wartime"
[3] This is something Black Jack was kind of infamous for in WW1; it wasn't quite the human waves of the Soviets in WW2 but he was a huge fan of frontal attacks. Pershing was a mediocre tactician but a very good political general in terms of his role as head of the AEF, IMO, but the conditions in the Southwest are very different from the Western Front of 1918 so his more aggressive offensive style would work better here.
I don't think is going to go as well as you think.
Sure Black jack Logan was good, as was Chamberlain, as civilian soldiers, but I don't know about this guy.
Also, William F Knowlands dad. Yay.
I see my prediction of Mexico carrying the CSA on its back is going to come true. Good Lord, how do you even lose such a city. Anyways, this is going to be a different kind of slog.
There's nothing wrong with Human Wave tactics. It's a tried-and-true method that never once failed.
The Guns of September
"...as a border state, Missouri had one of the largest and best-developed National Guards in the country, an investment begun under successive administrations but closely nurtured by its former Governor Hadley - now the Vice President of the United States. It was Hadley who, upon President Hughes' arrival in Philadelphia, urged the War Committee of Cabinet officers and senior military planners to route the Missouri Guard away from Cape Girardeau, where it had been positioned to help screen against raids from northeast Arkansas, to instead be moved to Joplin and partner with Guardsmen from Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska and the US Army's local cavalry units to thrust into the Indian Territory.
Hadley did not need to do much to convince the War Committee of the prudence of this strategic choice. The Osage Hills housed some of the richest oil wells on the North American continent, centered upon the boomtown of Tulasah on the Arkansas River. While the Confederacy had emerged in the last decade as a major oil producer in its own right, the Osage fields were more mature and better integrated with the rail network of both republics. The United States could not afford to not have access to Osage oil, and cutting it off from the Confederates was just an added boon.
The massed forces moved rapidly down the rail line from Joplin, Missouri to strike the Osage Hills from the west, as cavalry support and the Kansas Guardsmen moved south from Wichita along the Arkansas River to strike at defenders from the northwest. The Tulasah Campaign was an early, violent, and eventually successful targeted offensive by the United States; like other engagements that were not occurring east of the Appalachians, the strategic goals and objectives of it were accomplished by early October. The reality is that the "Territorial Guard" assembled by the Five Nations were easily overwhelmed in open battle and forced to quickly withdraw west of the Arkansas River and resort to guerilla tactics throughout the hill country. The US, upon seizing Tulasah itself in violent house-to-house combat, secured the rail yards and major oil wells and garrisoned them with thousands of men to keep the oil supply going; the wells and rail infrastructure would be major targets of Indian hit-and-run teams for the remainder of the war, and by late 1914 the Army resolved to pursue their opponents deeper into the Indian Territory down to the Canadian River to drive them further south from the oilfields. For the purposes of an early, achievable win, however, the capture of Tulasah had served its purposes..."
- The Guns of September
Hadley did not need to do much to convince the War Committee of the prudence of this strategic choice. The Osage Hills housed some of the richest oil wells on the North American continent, centered upon the boomtown of Tulasah on the Arkansas River. While the Confederacy had emerged in the last decade as a major oil producer in its own right, the Osage fields were more mature and better integrated with the rail network of both republics. The United States could not afford to not have access to Osage oil, and cutting it off from the Confederates was just an added boon.
The massed forces moved rapidly down the rail line from Joplin, Missouri to strike the Osage Hills from the west, as cavalry support and the Kansas Guardsmen moved south from Wichita along the Arkansas River to strike at defenders from the northwest. The Tulasah Campaign was an early, violent, and eventually successful targeted offensive by the United States; like other engagements that were not occurring east of the Appalachians, the strategic goals and objectives of it were accomplished by early October. The reality is that the "Territorial Guard" assembled by the Five Nations were easily overwhelmed in open battle and forced to quickly withdraw west of the Arkansas River and resort to guerilla tactics throughout the hill country. The US, upon seizing Tulasah itself in violent house-to-house combat, secured the rail yards and major oil wells and garrisoned them with thousands of men to keep the oil supply going; the wells and rail infrastructure would be major targets of Indian hit-and-run teams for the remainder of the war, and by late 1914 the Army resolved to pursue their opponents deeper into the Indian Territory down to the Canadian River to drive them further south from the oilfields. For the purposes of an early, achievable win, however, the capture of Tulasah had served its purposes..."
- The Guns of September
Well, the AEF was fresh in WW1, compared to say the 3.5 years of Battle hardened British and French soldiers who were - nevermind their German counterparts as well - also tired and exhausted.
Frankly though him thinking that all of these Fresh soldiers can do wonders against a tired enemy. Thats a thought process when anyone can believe in. Experience or no. Also, Pershing did not totally listen to the experienced French and British to at lease some degree to believe this notion..
Emory Upton certainly believed so....
unfortunately he just didn't get support...
I'd certainly say so. It would look like the Confederates beginning winning in the East, but continually lose in the West, until the Mexican military stabilizes the territory with their reinforcements.
Honestly this would allow the Confederates to focus a lot of their military on the East, if they have the Mexican Military supporting their Western left flank.
Which then makes us wonder about the Central front, given we know that the US is besieging Nashville Tennessee in 1915.
True. I’m not as harsh on Pershing as some, and he was a very adept organizer in getting the AEF into the field ready to go on such short notice, but it’s probably no controversy to state his style of war was not the most workable on the Western Front
I can’t even begin to describe the amount of disappointment I have for the CSA to leave this almost entirely unguarded. I know they think it’s going to be a short war, but god damn, is this downright neglectful
To be fair; the IT is a bit of a hybrid protectorate, and the Five Nations are expected to muster more of a defense before the CSA responds.
Without OTL’s development of Oklahoma as a territory then state, for that matter, this is one of the most isolated and remote points on the continent
I don't even think the movement will be spread out over that amount of time. I think it will be recognizable from more or less the point where the US hits the Tennessee line, become a *river* by the point where the Confederates end up pulling out of Maryland due to losses on the Central Front and pretty much unstoppable going *somewhere* between the surrender and the peace treaty. So try 3-4 Million between 1914 and 1918!
As for Confederate population. With 24 Million in 1910 pretty evenly split by population in 1910. Lets first take away all or almost all of the negros, so 16 million remaining, Of the 16 million whites, lets assume a 5% death rate in the war (may be higher, but we already know that the Confederacy got hit worse than any other nation in percentage casualties (other than *possibly* Argentina). So 800,000 deaths by the end of the war, so down to 15.2M Add to that the loss of Texas, the Arizona Territory and Oklahoma, maybe another 2M. So all put together the CSA goes from 24M to 13.2M and with the gender split of deaths not being equal, the idea of the number of Men in the CSA being *half* of what it was prewar isn't *that* impossible. (I'm not sure that the math changes much there between the Negros -> US, Negros get KY or Negro armed rebellions)
This is approaching Germany 1937 -> GDR+FRG 1949 changes. The main differences being that Germans living in what was given to Poland/USSR moved *into* the GDR & FRG *and* the Superpowers had an interest in getting the Germanies onto their feet.
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