Cinco de Mayo
- Thread starter KingSweden24
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Me too.This war will devastate most of the DC Metropolitan area and I'm looking forward to it.
Interesting Times: A History of the Chinese Revolution
"...the worst of the millenarian, militant secret societies in northern China, though, were the Yellow Sands, and the waves of uprisings and attacks staged by the fanatical organization through the winter and spring of 1911 could not have come at a worse time as the legitimacy of the Princes' Cabinet deteriorated not only with the rural, folk-religion practicing peasants who formed the backbone of the societies but also the small but influential literati and merchant class of the cities.
The simple fact was that after a decade of Boxer uprisings, the pursuant Western intervention in the North China Plain that left it a battlefield of bodies and destroyed cities and villages, the war against the Cixi Loyalists that took months upon months to drive them over the mountains into Xi'an, and then famine and drought followed by the Civil War beginning its third year, the territories held by the Qing were devastated. They lacked the already-lean industrial and agricultural capabilities of the Republic to sustain their armies, which enjoyed small-scale tactical success (particularly on the defensive) but struggled at the edge of their supply lines, and radical and militant ideologies spread amongst Qing armies like wildfire as many wondered what exactly they were doing being fed into the hail of bullets as their harvests dwindled back home. Close to two hundred thousand people had starved in Shandong alone in the winter of 1910-11, and much of Peking still had not been rebuilt even at the ten-year anniversary of its sacking by the Nine-Nation Alliance.
Qing forces eventually had to be reduced on the battlefields of the Central Plain to put down Yellow Sands, thinning out what was available to Feng Kuo-chang and beginning to erode his prestige in the Cabinet. Pressure began to mount on the Emperor to sack him and replace him with somebody more aggressive - Duan Qirui was the popular choice - in order to retake the initiative of the previous year that seemed to have been lost, especially as Republican counterattacks began to reclaim the ground gained by Chang Hsun during the critical late months of 1909..."
- Interesting Times: A History of the Chinese Revolution
The simple fact was that after a decade of Boxer uprisings, the pursuant Western intervention in the North China Plain that left it a battlefield of bodies and destroyed cities and villages, the war against the Cixi Loyalists that took months upon months to drive them over the mountains into Xi'an, and then famine and drought followed by the Civil War beginning its third year, the territories held by the Qing were devastated. They lacked the already-lean industrial and agricultural capabilities of the Republic to sustain their armies, which enjoyed small-scale tactical success (particularly on the defensive) but struggled at the edge of their supply lines, and radical and militant ideologies spread amongst Qing armies like wildfire as many wondered what exactly they were doing being fed into the hail of bullets as their harvests dwindled back home. Close to two hundred thousand people had starved in Shandong alone in the winter of 1910-11, and much of Peking still had not been rebuilt even at the ten-year anniversary of its sacking by the Nine-Nation Alliance.
Qing forces eventually had to be reduced on the battlefields of the Central Plain to put down Yellow Sands, thinning out what was available to Feng Kuo-chang and beginning to erode his prestige in the Cabinet. Pressure began to mount on the Emperor to sack him and replace him with somebody more aggressive - Duan Qirui was the popular choice - in order to retake the initiative of the previous year that seemed to have been lost, especially as Republican counterattacks began to reclaim the ground gained by Chang Hsun during the critical late months of 1909..."
- Interesting Times: A History of the Chinese Revolution
The Hamidian Era: The Ottoman Empire 1876-1914
"...Uskup [1] proved one of the most central points in the Balkans, as the place where the major railroads both within the Empire and beyond met. Thanks to its geographic location and its easy topography in an otherwise mountainous area, it was there that Salonica connected to Sarajevo, where the Albanian hills could be interlined most efficiently with the Bulgarian valleys. Though the Orient Express ran via a northern route, Uskup was still a critical international rail connection between the Orthodox kingdoms of Serbia and Greece, for it was the only place where the north-south trunk on the Balkans could connect the two, and thus it was also the main link for Greece and Athens overland. [2]
Reflecting its centrality in the south-central Balkan rail network, it was also one of the most polyglot, cosmopolitan and liberal cities in the Empire. Greek and Bulgarian were spoken nearly equally, and Turkish not far behind, but if one listened carefully one heard just as much Albanian, Serbo-Bosnian, Ladino and Arabic. Two of the largest universities in Ottoman Europe were there, it was home to the main railroad shops of the Imperial railway network, and by the late Hamidian era it had developed a robust economy beyond its traditional agricultural output to also include textiles, dyes, and even ironworks. Conversely, this hub as a multicultural center of Ottoman intellectualism meant it also was a focii of radical, more modernist ideologies, ranging from standard pan-Ottoman liberalism to ethnic nationalism to socialist revolutionaries..."
- The Hamidian Era: The Ottoman Empire 1876-1914
[1] Modern Skopje
[2] It's about halfway between the two
Reflecting its centrality in the south-central Balkan rail network, it was also one of the most polyglot, cosmopolitan and liberal cities in the Empire. Greek and Bulgarian were spoken nearly equally, and Turkish not far behind, but if one listened carefully one heard just as much Albanian, Serbo-Bosnian, Ladino and Arabic. Two of the largest universities in Ottoman Europe were there, it was home to the main railroad shops of the Imperial railway network, and by the late Hamidian era it had developed a robust economy beyond its traditional agricultural output to also include textiles, dyes, and even ironworks. Conversely, this hub as a multicultural center of Ottoman intellectualism meant it also was a focii of radical, more modernist ideologies, ranging from standard pan-Ottoman liberalism to ethnic nationalism to socialist revolutionaries..."
- The Hamidian Era: The Ottoman Empire 1876-1914
[1] Modern Skopje
[2] It's about halfway between the two
Bound for Bloodshed: The Road to the Great American War
"...Chile's political crisis of rotating Presidents opened up the system for a continuing breakdown of relations between the Liberals and Conservatives, who had otherwise for decades been willing to pass power back and forth between themselves. The 1911 elections thus became a grand debate about not only the future of the country but the vitality of the future President himself and, in a series of events now familiar to effectively every country in the nascent Bloc Sud, a contest to see who could demonize the United States and Argentina more for domestic consumption in order to better position their faction for control.
Chile, however, seemed to have a more paranoid streak to its anti-yanquismo than perhaps any other of its sister states, thanks to the memories of the brief war of 1885. The Pacific American Trust, an investment company established to handle the Chilean indemnity for sunk shipping, had never closed and now owned close to a quarter of Chile's nitrate trade, flush with eager American and British investors that had left the Chilean elite and populace alike deeply embittered, and it was slowly spreading its tentacles into the burgeoning copper mining business as well. While tax revenues from the two dominant industries had made Chile modern it was still a deeply unequal country that operated under a perpetual siege mentality, convinced that Peru wanted to snap back its nitrate fields and Argentina was salivating over the Tierra del Fuego, and that "el Patco" was behind it the curtain pulling the strings to make it all happen.
It did not help matters that President William Randolph Hearst had gotten his career started with a brief stint at the Pacific American offices in San Francisco as an investment clerk. To Hearst, that short job arranged for him by his Senator father had merely been a soft landing after an aimless university career that had inspired an interest in both the family mining business and the world of investments and trading, little more than a footnote in his long and colorful biography; to Chile, it was evidence that el Patco was controlling Hearst's ambitious and oft-aggressive foreign policy moves in the Americas, particularly his administration's alliance with Argentina and dogged attempts to purchase the Galapagos Archipelago, and that the despised firm was the American government's vehicle for one day taking over the whole of Chile. The rhetoric in Chilean politics thus grew darker and darker as the early 1910s recession badly effected its revenues and Pacific American officials on site grew more demanding for returns, and a future war between the Bloc Sud and the United States became seen in Santiago as a way to seize el Patco and drive El Yanqui from Chilean shores forever in a glorious celebration of nationalism that would make good the "mutilated victory" of 1885 where they had been forced to make concessions despite battling the United States to an effective draw on the high seas..." [1]
- Bound for Bloodshed: The Road to the Great American War
[1] Told y'all this would be important in the future!
Chile, however, seemed to have a more paranoid streak to its anti-yanquismo than perhaps any other of its sister states, thanks to the memories of the brief war of 1885. The Pacific American Trust, an investment company established to handle the Chilean indemnity for sunk shipping, had never closed and now owned close to a quarter of Chile's nitrate trade, flush with eager American and British investors that had left the Chilean elite and populace alike deeply embittered, and it was slowly spreading its tentacles into the burgeoning copper mining business as well. While tax revenues from the two dominant industries had made Chile modern it was still a deeply unequal country that operated under a perpetual siege mentality, convinced that Peru wanted to snap back its nitrate fields and Argentina was salivating over the Tierra del Fuego, and that "el Patco" was behind it the curtain pulling the strings to make it all happen.
It did not help matters that President William Randolph Hearst had gotten his career started with a brief stint at the Pacific American offices in San Francisco as an investment clerk. To Hearst, that short job arranged for him by his Senator father had merely been a soft landing after an aimless university career that had inspired an interest in both the family mining business and the world of investments and trading, little more than a footnote in his long and colorful biography; to Chile, it was evidence that el Patco was controlling Hearst's ambitious and oft-aggressive foreign policy moves in the Americas, particularly his administration's alliance with Argentina and dogged attempts to purchase the Galapagos Archipelago, and that the despised firm was the American government's vehicle for one day taking over the whole of Chile. The rhetoric in Chilean politics thus grew darker and darker as the early 1910s recession badly effected its revenues and Pacific American officials on site grew more demanding for returns, and a future war between the Bloc Sud and the United States became seen in Santiago as a way to seize el Patco and drive El Yanqui from Chilean shores forever in a glorious celebration of nationalism that would make good the "mutilated victory" of 1885 where they had been forced to make concessions despite battling the United States to an effective draw on the high seas..." [1]
- Bound for Bloodshed: The Road to the Great American War
[1] Told y'all this would be important in the future!
I know this is unlikely to happen, but Chile's government is giving me very fascistic vibes right now. Even compared to the Confederacy (who mind you, aren't being very calm right now), Chilean politics seems particularly deranged. I hate to see what they are going to do against the US and Argentines.
Deranged is a good word for it. And little do they know the Haber process is right around the corner to end the only reason anybody cares about them!
Here's hoping Argentina gets the lands south of the Deseado River back - only because it looks so weird that it is Chilean territory ITTL.
There is an interesting POD here: IOTL, Le Chatelier got really close to synthesizing ammonia. It's possible that future war efforts could give France this valuable technology instead.
Ooooh do you have any more details on that? Could indeed be an interesting twist to have France invent that first…
I agree! That area was super remote of course so it’s not like a lot of people lived out that way (and even today, neither Arg nor Chile have really exploited the considerable resources of the region all that much)
Given Le Chatelier's work, he may have already succeeded (iOTL, the experiment was in 1901.)
There might be some awkward retconning to come, then!
EDIT: though like any proper retcon it would dovetail well with the established narrative. Increasing ability to synthesize nitrates in Europe could suggest why Chile’s political class has become so “deranged” out of panic of the golden goose dying
There's certainly precedence there for elites who realize that their big advantage is gone to go crazy. In Venice (because I must tie all things back to Venice
) we have records of the Doge and his advisors reacting very very poorly to the news that Colombus discovered a whole new world because they knew that the old trade routes didn't matter as much anymore.Indeed! It would fit in within the overall mien of the Bloc Sud being motivated largely by a feeling that the good times of the late 19th are ending, too (doubly so in Chile where the Canal is about to render Valparaiso irrelevant)There's certainly precedence there for elites who realize that their big advantage is gone to go crazy. In Venice (because I must tie all things back to Venice
(Speaking of Venice, I enjoyed todays chapter btw)
The whole land division issue will depend on how the war goes, the most likely in my opinion is American victory in North America and Allied victory in Latin America (more specifically in South America).
the purple area is what they both want
I already feel the pain of seeing the map of the allied victory in south america. I hope the map of north america is not at that level
partly considering that mexico and brazil are doing well. But for the confederates and chile yes.
or are mexico and brazil doing badly?
the population of otl mexico is 128.9 million with the changes and reforms likely to be around 200-230 million (maybe almost 300 million). Brazil that did not have several important reforms that were being carried out and planned in the empire has 212.6 million, without the tumultuous periods of the republics and with the agricultural reforms it will have something around 300-350 million (maybe almost 400 or more)
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Brazil is doing the best of them all, and Mexico is doing pretty well. But these are all conservative societies (two of them are explicitly Catholic monarchies!) seeing their position slowly erode as the 800 lb bald eagle in the room spreads it’s wings over the hemisphere and those damn Alemistas in Argentina show an alternate path to oligarchic, top-down societies
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