Cinco de Mayo

[nagachate]

oh my God brazil...wait please keep in mind I've only read the recent updates and summaries because I don't yet have the time to read the whole thing yet so if this has already been pointed out have patience


but emperor with better reputation then there minsters? army and navy fighting?plans to fight America for the sake of what they see as there backyard?

Brazil is japan!

funniest part is that it isnt even unrealistic at all, the navy was where most of the "fortunate sons" would go for military service(the airforce eventually replaced them in that role) while the army was forgotten untill the 1860s and was the poor man's way of climbing the social ladder(Peixoto himself was born from a very poor family)

edit: though i dont personally think Brazil having "living space" ambitions like Japan makes a lot of sense, if that was the case they would expand to the hinterlands rather than take over land populated by spanish-speakers, no?

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

funniest part is that it isnt even unrealistic at all, the navy was where most of the "fortunate sons" would go for military service while the army was forgotten untill the 1860s and was the poor man's way of climbing the social ladder(Peixoto himself was born from a very poor family)

edit: though i dont personally think Brazil having "living space" ambitions like Japan makes a lot of sense, if that was the case they would expand to the hinterlands rather than take over land populated by spanish-speakers, no?

It's worth reminding that Uruguay was one third Brazilian until the late 19th century and even after the immigrants came, many gaúchos remained. Not only that, but the culture of Southern and Central Brazil is similar enough to Paraguay and Argentina that we could see a more peaceful integration or at least acceptance of the new overlords.

 

[nagachate]

It's worth reminding that Uruguay was one third Brazilian until the late 19th century and even after the immigrants came, many gaúchos remained. Not only that, but the culture of Southern and Central Brazil is similar enough to Paraguay and Argentina that we could see a more peaceful integration or at least acceptance of the new overlords.

didn't knew about the one third brazilian thing, that's cool, but really unless there is some sort of radical rise of brazilian nationalism, which somehow brings gauchos under its wings(its a complicated history, though the gaucho founding myth of farroupilha etc wasnt that strong untill the 1920s/30s), don't get me wrong i agree there will be interests in Uruguay that will drive foreign policy, aswell as control over the La Plata basin, but some "greater brazil" sort of deal is too much.

what im trying to say is that i think it would take some mothra level butterflies to make Brazil irredentist enough to annex the platine nations, save for Mato Grosso do SUl with Paraguay and Rio Grande do Sul with Uruguay, there aren't many cross border foundness, here in southern Brazil its easier to find this feeling towards European ancestral nations than to other South American nations.

 

[nagachate]

didn't knew about the one third brazilian thing, that's cool, but really unless there is some sort of radical rise of brazilian nationalism, which somehow brings gauchos under its wings(its a complicated history, though the gaucho founding myth of farroupilha etc wasnt that strong untill the 1920s/30s), don't get me wrong i agree there will be interests in Uruguay that will drive foreign policy, aswell as control over the La Plata basin, but some "greater brazil" sort of deal is too much.

what im trying to say is that i think it would take some mothra level butterflies to make Brazil irredentist enough to annex the platine nations, save for Mato Grosso do SUl with Paraguay and Rio Grande do Sul with Uruguay, there aren't many cross border foundness, here in southern Brazil its easier to find this feeling towards European ancestral nations than to other South American nations.

Living Space xd

 

[holycookie]

Living Space xd

difference would be that it would have a greater focus on the southern cone, in case of conquest. the south of brazil was attractive to europeans, not only from southern europe but also from northern europe. Germans, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Austrians etc. so it would be a great area to have more white immigrants. Something that was fashionable in Brazil at that time

After the end of slavery, Brazil began to focus on "importing" Europeans. This had two reasons. the first to improve the local economy with more educated individuals (from agriculture to industry) and the second was a greater whitening of the country. This whitening of the country occurred in two ways, the first one with the arrival of families of immigrants who went to the south where they did not have slaves in large numbers and could easily become the majority (it was very successful, to the bridge of having a state where the majority of the population is of German descent). The other way shown in the painting would occur through population misegenation in which with only three generations (at least) a population could be converted from black to white. In the painting, the grandmother is black, the mother is parda, and the son is white.

the probable march to the west (as shown in the photo) will be made by the ex-slave population and the poorest part of the population. with the southern cone being used to lure more accustomed Europeans to colder climates. (like Germans for example)

with the fall of the ottoman empire, there will be a large wave of christian arabs and there wil be the great migrancion of japanese to brazil (the country with the most Japanese descendants in the world) . so it would be possible to have a banzai for the emperor of brazil made by a Japanese-Brazilian soldier

 

[nagachate]

difference would be that it would have a greater focus on the southern cone, in case of conquest. the south of brazil was attractive to europeans, not only from southern europe but also from northern europe. Germans, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Austrians etc. so it would be a great area to have more white immigrants. Something that was fashionable in Brazil at that time

View attachment 743691
After the end of slavery, Brazil began to focus on "importing" Europeans. This had two reasons. the first to improve the local economy with more educated individuals (from agriculture to industry) and the second was a greater whitening of the country. This whitening of the country occurred in two ways, the first one with the arrival of families of immigrants who went to the south where they did not have slaves in large numbers and could easily become the majority (it was very successful, to the bridge of having a state where the majority of the population is of German descent). The other way shown in the painting would occur through population misegenation in which with only three generations (at least) a population could be converted from black to white. In the painting, the grandmother is black, the mother is parda, and the son is white.

the probable march to the west (as shown in the photo) will be made by the ex-slave population and the poorest part of the population. with the southern cone being used to lure more accustomed Europeans to colder climates. (like Germans for example)

i am aware of much of this, IRL gauchos were commonly send to the interior, Rondonia was settled mostly by people from my state, Paraná, and RIo Grande do Sul. São Paulo was probably the main destination of most migrants though. funny story iirc Germany banned migration to Brazil after a scandal around a farmer in São Paulo using german migrants as slaves, they only allowed migration to southern Brazil later on

all in all, in my opinion brazilian expansion, other than economically motivated like the ones that led to wars in Uruguay and Argentina, would require brazilian nationalism like that which would only develop by the 1920s and 1930s

Also i belive at the time of the timeline Brazil was undergoing a rubber boom, so migration to Amazonas and Pará should be stronger, specially by arabs that you mentioned in your last edit, i remember reading a book written by a lebanese-brazilian from Amazonas

 

[holycookie]

but some "greater brazil" sort of deal is too much.

this was the objective of the empire of brazil, or at least the royal family of bragança, to create a unique south american empire. I don't remember if Portugal became a republic, probably yes. If so the last Portuguese royal family would be the Brazilian branch. (which, by the way, obviously had Habsburg blood, the yellow part of the Imperial flag was Habsburg and the green the Bragança family )

save for Mato Grosso do SUl with Paraguay and Rio Grande do Sul with Uruguay, there aren't many cross border foundness,

probably the region od entre rios to connect both

here in southern Brazil its easier to find this feeling towards European ancestral nations than to other South American nations.

this has always been a brazilian thing, the country tends to ignore the rest of south america and at most has a diplomacy with argentina, uruguay and paraguay. (the regions that would in theory be coveted by the empire). brazil tends to ignore the term latin america saying that it is not part of it

 

[nagachate]

The war in parguay showed how well the tactics of terror worked and how the population of Brazil is indifferent to crimes committed by the army as long as it is against an "enemy". They ( the army) gained prestige from it, but not as much as they wanted.Considering what this war with argentina would be the chance for the army to be seen as an equal of the navy, in their eyes. they will probably fight almost fanatically for the prestige.

while we are discussing this, i personally disagree that the people were indifferent to crimes comitted by the army, many people, specially liberal newspapers (they even criticized the Duke of Caxias, he was a prominient conservative politician too, thus a political enemy, despite being overall held in high opinion by most) were critical of the war in its later stages, most thought expelling the paraguayans was good enough, specially after the battles got more and more deadly and inflation and the debt to english banks began growing, Pedro and d'Eu's pursue of Solano wasnt well received iirc

...
on the other hand i actually don't think the army would care lol, i mean they had little remorse in bombarding the town of Canudos with Krupp cannons

 

[nagachate]

probably the region od entre rios to connect both

i've heard from Argentinians that they call people from Missiones "brazilian" due to their heavily "brazilianfied" accent, when i listened to a video of a Missionero i was actually surprised with how much it sounded like portunhol lol

this has always been a brazilian thing, the country tends to ignore the rest of south america and at most has a diplomacy with argentina, uruguay and paraguay. (the regions that would in theory be coveted by the empire). brazil tends to ignore the term latin america saying that it is not part of it

true, even if i personally think we should integrate ourself with our neighbours


i guess you're right about a "great brazil project" but i just find it really hard to swallow that Brazil (in the 1910s at least) embraced some "blood and soil" ideology like Japan or Germany before we even had developed a strong sense of "brazilianess" in the 20s(not saying there wasnt a brazilian identity or brazilian nationalism, just that there wasnt a "national myth" if you get what im trying to say), specially given "blood" isnt a very good argument when we have such a diverse population

though i might be midsunderstanding the timeline's approach to Brazil

 

[holycookie]

all in all, in my opinion brazilian expansion, other than economically motivated like the ones that led to wars in Uruguay and Argentina, would require brazilian nationalism like that which would only develop by the 1920s and 1930s

now it would be the year 1910, it would not be difficult to accelerate this nationalism earlier, especially since brazil did not have the bad period of the first republic.

Also i belive at the time of the timeline Brazil was undergoing a rubber boom, so migration to Amazonas and Pará should be stronger

That means that soon the war in acre will happen. this means that the war in acre will soon take place, it will probably be faster considering that bolivia will not have the support of the usa

specially by arabs that you mentioned in your last edit, i remember reading a book written by a lebanese-brazilian from Amazonas

yes the arabs did very well in brazil

 

[nagachate]

now it would be the year 1910, it would not be difficult to accelerate this nationalism earlier, especially since brazil did not have the bad period of the first republic.

true, now i wonder if Policarpo Quaresma was ever written, would fit nicelly if that's the case

an expansionist spin on "cultural antropofagy" sounds quite funny, literally "if you dont come to brazil brazil will come to you"

 

[holycookie]

i guess you're right about a "great brazil project" but i just find it really hard to swallow that Brazil (in the 1910s at least) embraced some "blood and soil" ideology like Japan or Germany

is less blood and soil and more classic imperialism. I want this because I'm the best. It would probably be focused on how stable the empire is and how Brazil should share this prosperity with the Argentinians/Uruguayans/Paraguayans through the absorption of these nations into the empire. It is also likely to take more than acre of bolivia. The idea would be to unite the southern cone into an empire of "peace, prosperity and the whole thing"

 

[holycookie]

literally "if you dont come to brazil brazil will come to you"

it would be more like this

 

[nagachate]

it would be more like this
View attachment 743701

so more like american imperialism? the comparison to Japan probably just gave me the wrong impression

 

[holycookie]

so more like american imperialism? the comparison to Japan probably just gave me the wrong impression

yes, but with a Brazilian flavor. the comparison with japan has to do with the fact that the army and navy don't like each other very much.
it will probably be more diverse/tolerant due to the greater ease of brazil to absorb populations, with argentines who are catholic and who speak a very similar language. Than Americans who are Protestant and English-speaking and are majority white with Catholic Mexicans who speak Spanish and are majority mixed
especially when immigration starts to really take place in the southern cone. where the link is likely to occur due to the origin of the immigrants being the same. So a Brazilian and an Argentine may not get along, but two immigrants from the same country can.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

while we are discussing this, i personally disagree that the people were indifferent to crimes comitted by the army, many people, specially liberal newspapers (they even criticized the Duke of Caxias, he was a prominient conservative politician too, thus a political enemy, despite being overall held in high opinion by most) were critical of the war in its later stages, most thought expelling the paraguayans was good enough, specially after the battles got more and more deadly and inflation and the debt to english banks began growing, Pedro and d'Eu's pursue of Solano wasnt well received iirc

...
on the other hand i actually don't think the army would care lol, i mean they had little remorse in bombarding the town of Canudos with Krupp cannons

Worth reminding that after the major battle in the Paraguayan War, Caxias actually suggested to Dom Pedro that they Should seek peace because Paraguay had basically been destroyed at the moment, but Pedro wanted to keep going.

In which, Caxias resigned because in his words, the way Pedro wanted to win the war "Would mean killing the last Paraguayan in his mother's womb." And that "He was no gravedigger" and left command to others.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

But I agree with these posts, Brazil will definitely want to add Uruguay alongside Paraguay completely, simply because these are areas with good river access that makes transportation and commerce easier into the empire. I don't see them completely gobbling up Argentina but more so taking the valuable Pampas regions (reminder that Argentina got really rich because of it's cattle industry) as well as more coastline for controlling the Plata River and keeping a rump Argentina in check.

 

[holycookie]

But I agree with these posts, Brazil will definitely want to add Uruguay alongside Paraguay completely, simply because these are areas with good river access that makes transportation and commerce easier into the empire. I don't see them completely gobbling up Argentina but more so taking the valuable Pampas regions (reminder that Argentina got really rich because of it's cattle industry) as well as more coastline for controlling the Plata River and keeping a rump Argentina in check.

I agree with you, probably the pampas will be something like alaska without land connection but being part of brazil
or Argentina becomes a sort of satellite state. The king of argentina or la plata being one of the titles of the emperor of Brazil. The country is not in theory attached but becomes part of the empire. something like quebec

 

[KingSweden24]

Definitely a lot of interesting discussion about Brazil here! Don’t want to give away toooo much though 😉

 

[theflyingmongoose]

I know Maximillian has the Hapsburg genes and isn't that old but seeing him still reigning after like 50 years is strange.