churchills dumdum mistake

i was reading somewhere that when he was taken prisoner in the second boer war, near Chieveley, Natal, on an attack on the armoured train he was on, he was carrying a pistol with dumdum rounds.
these were declared unlawful on pain of death. foretunately for him he dumped it before being caught.
so i was thinking... what would happen to the future if he had been caught with these on his person?
if this is the POD and winston gets a bullet for his troubles, would Gallipoli campaign still go ahead in WW1? as i thought he was the main driving force behind it as Lord of Admirilaty.
and who would take his place ni this role? and future roles?
eastern europe would have something other then "an iron curtain" after world war 2?
 
if this is the POD and winston gets a bullet for his troubles, would Gallipoli campaign still go ahead in WW1? as i thought he was the main driving force behind it as Lord of Admirilaty.
No, Lord Kitchener was the driving force behind the Gallipoli landings, Churchill had wanted to force a purely naval path through the Dardanelles, but this came to naught when the minesweepers ran when they came under fire, and the resulting miscommunication cost the Entente 6 battleships and several other vessels sunk, and several more badly damaged.

What you'd probably end up with is Fisher's plan of an amphibious landing directly in northern Germany.
 
If Fisher's landings had gone ahead, and been successful, Britain and France would have been able to get supplies to Russia through the Baltic (for reference, the attack would have been on Germany's Baltic coast), and possibly also open Germany to an eventual push on Berlin.

As for whether it would have been successful, I don't know enough to comment.
 
FWIW I believe Churchill was carrying his broomhandle Mauser automatic when he was captured (he'd used it in action against enemy fighters at Omdurman), I doubt that weapon would chamber hollow nosed ammo.

Unless he was carrying a backup revolver loaded with expanding bullets the Boers aren't going to execute him in a fit of righteousness. Of course he could be shot for some other reason.
 
FWIW I believe Churchill was carrying his broomhandle Mauser automatic when he was captured (he'd used it in action against enemy fighters at Omdurman), I doubt that weapon would chamber hollow nosed ammo.

Unless he was carrying a backup revolver loaded with expanding bullets the Boers aren't going to execute him in a fit of righteousness. Of course he could be shot for some other reason.

Churchill was indeed carrying his C96 that day; he stated in his memoirs that he had lost it in the course of events prior to being captured. As for whether it was loaded with dum-dum bullets, probably not; standard ammunition for it would be difficult enough to get, never mind custom loads. The C96 will fire hollow point or dum-dum bullets if those are substituted for the standard round-nosed bullets, but for military purposes there would be no reason to do so; the standard ammo is quite sufficient.
 
If Fisher's landings had gone ahead, and been successful, Britain and France would have been able to get supplies to Russia through the Baltic (for reference, the attack would have been on Germany's Baltic coast), and possibly also open Germany to an eventual push on Berlin.

As for whether it would have been successful, I don't know enough to comment.

The probability of success would be quite small.

First, the invasion force would have to transit Danish and/or Swedish territorial waters, which would require obtaining permission from their governments (and thereby forfeiting the element of surprise) or violating their sovereignty with who knows what results.

Second, the force would have to deal with the High Seas Fleet, which would be fighting with home field advantage, so to speak. The odds of getting a sizable invasion fleet past them unscathed are vanishingly small.

Third, the Germans are ready and waiting; they half expected such a thing. Not only are there minefields and coastal batteries, but a German North Army (one reserve corps, one Landwehr corps, and other odds and ends) is available to contest the landings, and the Germans will of course rush reinforcements to the area over their excellent rail network.

Fourth, even if the British do establish themselves ashore, resupplying the force through a North Sea and Baltic infested with German warships and submarines is going to be nightmarish. Any British force landed will wither away in short order.

It is fortunate indeed that Fisher's suggestion was not taken seriously; it would have resulted in the destruction of the majority of the BEF (and probably a lot of the Grand Fleet as well) for minimal gain.
 
if this is the POD and winston gets a bullet for his troubles, would Gallipoli campaign still go ahead in WW1? as i thought he was the main driving force behind it as Lord of Admirilaty.
and who would take his place ni this role? and future roles?
eastern europe would have something other then "an iron curtain" after world war 2?

A dead Churchill has many knock on effects that would lead to a dramatically different world that would be difficult to imagine. Churchill was an example of how an individual can affect history in contrast to the Marxist belief that socio-political-economic forces are all that matters.

As far as the admiralty was concerned it was Churchill who was the driving force behind the 15" gun being agreed on to equip battleships, his decision to build no more battlecruisers on the lion/tiger model. It was his decision to seize the Turkish battleships in August 1914 thereby alienating the Ottomans although they would have probably joined the Central Powers anyway. It was Churchill who pushed through with development of the tank at the admiralty when the army initially showed little interest. The gallipoli campaign was not entirely his plan but he pushed for it.

So 2 things we can be sure of are:

No QE battleships

No tanks until much later.

WW2 has too many butterflies to list.
 
Churchill was indeed carrying his C96 that day; he stated in his memoirs that he had lost it in the course of events prior to being captured. As for whether it was loaded with dum-dum bullets, probably not; standard ammunition for it would be difficult enough to get, never mind custom loads. The C96 will fire hollow point or dum-dum bullets if those are substituted for the standard round-nosed bullets, but for military purposes there would be no reason to do so; the standard ammo is quite sufficient.

You can modify standard issue ammunition simply by cutting an x in the tips with a knife thus turning it into a bullet that will expand and/or fragment when it hits a target.

Just FYI modifying issue ammunition is highly illegal at least in the modern army. It is court martial offense just to have it on your person.
 
Fourth, even if the British do establish themselves ashore, resupplying the force through a North Sea and Baltic infested with German warships and submarines is going to be nightmarish. Any British force landed will wither away in short order.
The Submarines might be an issue, but I doubt the German surface fleet would be much of one, after all, the Entente are going to have everything thrown into the Gallipoli campaign, plus everything committed to the Battle of Jutland (the modern stuff will be out ship-hunting, the obsolescent stuff will be bombarding ahead of the invasion troops).
 
The Submarines might be an issue, but I doubt the German surface fleet would be much of one, after all, the Entente are going to have everything thrown into the Gallipoli campaign, plus everything committed to the Battle of Jutland (the modern stuff will be out ship-hunting, the obsolescent stuff will be bombarding ahead of the invasion troops).

Machs nicht. The Germans have more troops and can get them to the scene quicker than the British can. They will swarm over the BEF like ants on a candy bar; there is no chance for such a scheme to end in anything other than disaster. Fisher's plan makes Sealion look quite sensible.
 
Machs nicht. The Germans have more troops and can get them to the scene quicker than the British can. They will swarm over the BEF like ants on a candy bar; there is no chance for such a scheme to end in anything other than disaster. Fisher's plan makes Sealion look quite sensible.
Undeniably, I was just pointing out that the Entente had a big advantage in the field of capital ships.
 

Cook

Banned
No, Lord Kitchener was the driving force behind the Gallipoli landings, Churchill had wanted to force a purely naval path through the Dardanelles, but this came to naught when the minesweepers ran when they came under fire, and the resulting miscommunication cost the Entente 6 battleships and several other vessels sunk, and several more badly damaged.
The idea originated with Churchill and was for amphibious landings supporting a drive through the Dardanelles. The concept began to change during discussions in cabinet. Kitchener was ‘favourable’ in cabinet but trying to get him to commit resources to it was like pulling teeth and his complete lack of operational security doomed the venture.
 
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Adler

Banned
Undeniably, I was just pointing out that the Entente had a big advantage in the field of capital ships.

Okay, let's see the consequences of this Seelöwe XXL operation:

If the British had tried to invade Pommerania they had to do it this way: One chunk of the RN had to try to engage the HSF before she was able to attack the landing forces. And this force had to be bigger than the HSF.

In the meantime the landing convoy had to pass Danish and Swedish waters. And then would land the forces in Pommerania.

So the planning. Now the problems.

At first the main problem would be the lack of surprise. At last when the British fleet enters Danish waters the Germans WILL know it. Denmark was under strong German influence in these days.

Because of this they will do everything to make this landing a failure. It is highly likely the HSF will ignore the British fleet and send the big ships to the Baltic. Well, ignoring is not a good term as small craft and Uboats and planes will attack the RN force.

The next problem for the RN are the Danish waters. They are mined. Even if there are enough sweepers the time for passing the area would be even longer. And the Uboats would come. Not to mention the mining of several ships, which are sunk/damaged despite the sweeping.

And now the survivors would have to face the HSF ready for action, while the own forces were already decimated. If the Homefleet is escorting them, the chances are high they might get up to Pommerania.

Until this point the RN would have lost a substantial number of ships. And while the troops were landing, the HSF would attack. Likely at first hit and run attacks from torpedo boats in the nights. When the RN is down to a certain number the fleet attacks.

And now we have the desaster. Even if the RN can win this engagement, they are lost. They will have so many losses and damaged ships they can't really hope to break through the mine fields again.

On the land the BEF was caught and had to surrender. Thus the only way for the survivors is going to Russia.

When the rest of the HSF is repaired, Scheer will sortie into the Atlantic Ocean, breaking the blockade and causing havock under the British merchant ships.

At last on this day Britain will sue for peace.

This was indeed the worst plan in military history. If executed the own side would have lost. Seelöwe is in contrast to this very sensible.

Adler
 

Cook

Banned
so i was thinking... what would happen to the future if he had been caught with these on his person?
Churchill lived an extremely full and surprisingly charmed life, this is only one of a very large number of times when he could have been killed prior to his involvement in World Wars One and Two.
 
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