Churchill dies on Nelson October 1939

[JAG88]

I think she'd have survived, her TDS system was if I recall from Nelson to Vanguard considered better than the KGV's (or was the KGV's based on it...) can't fully remember but this was in a period when the Royal Navy had a massive hardon for anything like anti-flash protection and torpedo protection and she was built with a LOT of experience from WW1.

I'll also point out that a more modern ship

Yes, a more modern one, not a 20y old one as in this case.

...took a hit from considerably larger torpedo courtesy of the IJN than what the Germans had and she survived fine.

Really? And which RN ship was this and when?

Also are we assuming that these torpedoes somehow don't get spotted and the ship does not manouver to avoid them? As soon as they are spotted then she'll be at action stations with everything battened down.

Since you clearly didnt bother to read what happened all 3 torpedoes hit IRL but failed to detonate, the DP is that the do and Churchill goes down with the ship.

I would also like to know how does, in your scenario, the mighty RN sailors manage to see electric torpedoes which are kinda wakeless...

No BB survived 3 heavy torpedo hits, some were refloated after sinking in their moorings or running aground, but those caught in the open simply sank and Barham is the closest example.

 

[Cook]

I'll say it again. If you want to kill Winston Churchill off, simply choose the time in his carreer that is most convenient to you and wave a stick, you are bound to hit half a dozen easy ways of killing him off; the man lived life to the full, with an energy that left men half his age struggling to keep up and with a complete disregard to his own safety. Becoming Prime Minister didn't change that. If anything it made him more recless because people could no longer tell him he couldn't do something.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'll say it again. If you want to kill Winston Churchill off, simply choose the time in his carreer that is most convenient to you and wave a stick, you are bound to hit half a dozen easy ways of killing him off; the man lived life to the full, with an energy that left men half his age struggling to keep up and with a complete disregard to his own safety. Becoming Prime Minister didn't change that. If anything it made him more recless because people could no longer tell him he couldn't do something.

But what's the effect if he dies once WW2 starts, but before he becomes PM?

 

[sonofpegasus]

Three torepedo hits on the TDS of Nelson Technicaly should be within the limits of the design to survive but that does not garantee survival (Hood should not have blown up for example). The auguement is spurrious to the POD, if Nelson sinks and Winston Churchill dies the implication for GB could be dire. If as OTL after Dunkirk there are moves by the appeasers to negotiate with the Nazis then without Churchill who of the alternatives could prevent it and how?

 

[brazen]

Yes, a more modern one, not a 20y old one as in this case.



Really? And which RN ship was this and when?



Since you clearly didnt bother to read what happened all 3 torpedoes hit IRL but failed to detonate, the DP is that the do and Churchill goes down with the ship.

I would also like to know how does, in your scenario, the mighty RN sailors manage to see electric torpedoes which are kinda wakeless...

No BB survived 3 heavy torpedo hits, some were refloated after sinking in their moorings or running aground, but those caught in the open simply sank and Barham is the closest example.

HMS Barham - designed 1912 well before any wartime experience, torpedo bulges were a later retrofit on top of the existing hull and the bulges were always a compromise between protection and a loss of speed.

HMS Nelson - Designed in the mid 20s after 4 years war experience and a number of years to absorb the information and develop a decent TDS system, system was integral to the design and was backed by a 1.52 torpedo bulkhead and good compartmentalization behind the TDS bulkhead, the same design served as the basis for all later RN battleship TDS and I think actually worked quite well in comparison to many other nations TDS (Yamato system and the Pugliese Sytem).

For every Barham there is an HMS Edinburgh which took 2 U boat torpedoes and still got to a friendly port. Comparing a pre WW1 BB designed with partal additional exterior TDS vs a Post Washington BB with a purpose built and designed TDS as part of the integral armored citadel, similar to the German system used on Scharnhorst and the Bismarck and assuming the same thing will happen is nonsensical.

Scharnhorst took a number of Torpedoes and was still steaming at the North cape, she was lost because she was overwhelmed by a numerically superior enemy. Nelson in this scenario may well be in trouble but the odds are in her favor as she has escorts to drive down the U-boat and friendly ports she make.

I'm not saying Nelson will not sink, she may well be overwhelmed by progressive flooding over time, but I would not expect a HMS Barham type explosion.

 

[Devolved]

But what's the effect if he dies once WW2 starts, but before he becomes PM?

I think the answer you want to hear is that with a different leader Britain negotiates a peace after Dunkirk. So Germany is master of a Europe at peace.

But like Cook said...you can choose any event before May 1940. Churchill could get killed by a car in New York (I think someone has done that), shot trying to escape a Boer prison camp in South Africa, get killed by a shell or sniper on the Western Front or falls down the stairs while drunk and breaks his neck.

 

[Curiousone]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//archive/index.php/t-128433.html

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.war.world-war-ii/5kO2IkC4IDM

Other forums.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=70786&start=0

Contact Pistol vs Magnetic Pistol, commentor reckons Magnetic Pistol would have defeated TDS.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...#v=onepage&q=if nelson torpedoed 1939&f=false

Design meant the ship was supposed to maintain 80-90% speed after 3 torpedo hits. Not that that happened in the Med.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I think the answer you want to hear is that with a different leader Britain negotiates a peace after Dunkirk. So Germany is master of a Europe at peace.

But like Cook said...you can choose any event before May 1940. Churchill could get killed by a car in New York (I think someone has done that), shot trying to escape a Boer prison camp in South Africa, get killed by a shell or sniper on the Western Front or falls down the stairs while drunk and breaks his neck.

That's not the answer I'm looking for per se; I'm looking for what the political situation would be, such as how instrumental Churchill was to keeping Britain in the war. We know that Halifax would have asked for terms, because he did IOTL, but asking and accepting are two very different things. And just because Halifax might have wanted terms he would need to bring the war cabinet along with him to get it signed, so would they have accepted it?