Churchill dies on Nelson October 1939

[Tyr]

Agreed that a few torpedos on a battleship in port isn't going to kill many people nor even much affect the ship. It could be patched up and refloated.

Churchill's role in the war is overrated. He was a good orator but most of the actual governing of the country was done by Attlee.

No, Hitler wanted Britain to focus on its empire and leave Europe alone so he could rule it; basically he wanted an alliance with them. In fact he seemed to think Churchill was the only reason the British weren't being reasonable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Haha, yeah, funny that. Churchill was in fact one of the more likely people in Britain to have agreed with him.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Churchill's role in the war is overrated. He was a good orator but most of the actual governing of the country was done by Attlee.

He was the major force keeping the nation in the war after Dunkirk; based on the reading I've been doing about the situation with Halifax, its likely he would have tried to cut a deal and undermined national morale in the process.

Haha, yeah, funny that. Churchill was in fact one of the more likely people in Britain to have agreed with him.

Except he wasn't willing to let anyone control the continent. So no, in fact he didn't want to have Britain focus on its colonies to the exclusion of Europe; he was the major voice for war in the 1930s (and pretty much ever other time too).

 

[sharlin]

To be honest RN ships sometimes blow up if the Germans do a sneaky thing

Aboukir Houge and Cressy - Capsized, torpedoed whilst rescuing crews
Jutland - Shitty ammo practices for Indifatigable and Queen Mary because of a twerp with a cocked hat, and a lucky hit at close range on Invincible.
Royal Oak - Capsized
Hood - Golden BB
Barham - Capsized and then exploded as did the Yamato.
Ark Royal - Incredibly lucky hit, she was turning away and bared her hull where the torpedo hit and then it was shoddy damage control and the decision to run her at high speed for a while which just added to the damage

Might be coincidence...

Fixed it for you.

I'm sure the Germans would have had just as much luck if they came out to play more often.

 

[King Augeas]

As I understand it, Barham was hit by three torpedos in quick succession, all in a similar location on her hull. It doesn't surprise me that three hits around about the same point would overwhelm her more primitive TDS and cause her to capsize quickly.

So we should be wary about extrapolating to Nelson. Her fate would depend strongly on the location of the hits. For example, three hits outside the citadel shouldn't be capable of sinking her at all, assuming no serious shaft damage as in the case of PoW. But whatever happens, three hits means a long spell in dock at the very best.

As an aside, Wiki says that Nelson hit two mines off Normandy. Does anyone know more about the nature of these mines and the damage caused?

 

[BlairWitch749]

Fixed it for you.

I'm sure the Germans would have had just as much luck if they came out to play more often.

bismark was crippled by a single fish, gneisenau was catastrophically damaged by two small mines

three fish simultaneous is death on an underway ship let alone a ship as heavy as nelson... the only question is how long the death takes

 

[sharlin]

I think she'd have survived, her TDS system was if I recall from Nelson to Vanguard considered better than the KGV's (or was the KGV's based on it...) can't fully remember but this was in a period when the Royal Navy had a massive hardon for anything like anti-flash protection and torpedo protection and she was built with a LOT of experience from WW1.

I'll also point out that a more modern ship took a hit from considerably larger torpedo courtesy of the IJN than what the Germans had and she survived fine. Also are we assuming that these torpedoes somehow don't get spotted and the ship does not manouver to avoid them? As soon as they are spotted then she'll be at action stations with everything battened down.

 

[sharlin]

bismark was crippled by a single fish, gneisenau was catastrophically damaged by two small mines

three fish simultaneous is death on an underway ship let alone a ship as heavy as nelson... the only question is how long the death takes

The Bismark's crippling was a golden BB although she then suffered that in her final battle, twice with her fire control and forward turrets being taken out in very quick order.

What crippled Gneisenau was shock damage to her machinery, the HP boilers of the Scharnhorst class were absolute pigs when it came to maintenance and were verrry fragile and it was shock damage through the hull that buggered her machinery up.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I think she'd have survived, her TDS system was if I recall from Nelson to Vanguard considered better than the KGV's (or was the KGV's based on it...) can't fully remember but this was in a period when the Royal Navy had a massive hardon for anything like anti-flash protection and torpedo protection and she was built with a LOT of experience from WW1.

You sure about that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V-class_battleship_(1939)#Underwater_protection

 

[sharlin]

I'd not rely on wikipedia too much mate.

 

[juanml82]

Instead of a torpedo, Churchill drinks to much whisky and slips in the shower. Now, can the thread go on?


(Realizes it would stop a discussion about battleships in ah.com, and realizes the sheer implausibility of it)

 

[sharlin]

Instead of a torpedo, Churchill drinks to much whisky and slips in the shower. Now, can the thread go on?


(Realizes it would stop a discussion about battleships in ah.com, and realizes the sheer implausibility of it)

If you would come this way some of my friends would like to have a chat...

Grab sticks lads, get him!

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

Fixed it for you.

I'm sure the Germans would have had just as much luck if they came out to play more often.

- I know that usually were not "blow-ups" but those are the moments when the German navy had the "upper hand" - sort of.

I agree that the RN is often (too often) depicted as - underperforming - and thats NOT fair.

 

[sharlin]

If anything the German ships and their crews suffered worse fates than the quick and painless flash of a magazine cooking off. Bismark, Scharnhorst, Blucher (and the original twins in WW1) for example were all pounded into flaming wrecks full of the dead and dying, a worse and more drawn out death than those unfortunates aboard ships who exploded.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'd not rely on wikipedia too much mate.

I'd prefer not to have to, but I cannot find much other information online about TDS for the Nelson; from what I can find information about, it seems the Nelson, having entered construction in 1922 was less advanced than the KG-V class, which was laid down over 10 years later with more development.

If you have better sources I'm willing to defer to those and I'd like to be able to check them out so that I can update my knowledge base too.

 

[sharlin]

I'll have a trawl through Nelson to Vanguard and post up some relevant details if you desire when I get home tonight after seeing Thor II.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I'll have a trawl through Nelson to Vanguard and post up some relevant details if you desire when I get home tonight after seeing Thor II.

Whenever its convenient, I would appreciate it if you could. In the meantime I found this from your favorite source:

Apparently the Nelson-class BBs were based on much of the research put into the G-3 class battlecruisers, so here is the link from that class.

Many of the aspects of their design ultimately were incorporated into the two Nelson class, and they are often described as being a cut-down G3. Indeed, the Nelsons received the design designation 'O3', marking them as next in the design sequence from the 'N3' battleship design although they used the guns intended for the G3 class for cost reasons and to comply with the Treaty's 16-inch limitation on main armament.[26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G3_battlecruiser#Armour

The anti-torpedo bulges of the G3 battlecruisers were intended to withstand the explosion of a 750-pound (340 kg) torpedo warhead. They consisted of an outer air space, an inner buoyancy space and the torpedo bulkhead that consisted of two layers of .875-inch (22 mm) high-tensile steel. The bulkhead was situated some 13.5 feet (4.1 m) inboard from the side of the ship.[23] Postwar tests done on a replica of this system showed that filling the buoyancy space with water rather than the sealed steel crushing tubes as used in Hood was just as effective and weighed less.[24] A compressed air system was fitted to blow the water out of the buoyancy spaces and bring the ship upright in 15 minutes after two torpedo hits.[8] The ship's double bottom ranged from 5–7 feet (1.5–2.1 m) in depth.[23]

 

[sharlin]

Aye the Nelrods were G3 lites, neutered by the Washington treaty but the major changes were the physical size of the ship and the weight that would have gone into the G3's engineering being removed to save a lot of weight. But the protection scheme's of the two designs were damn near identical. The Nelson's had slightly thinner protection over their decks and the belt was re-arranged due to the different layout of the turrets (the Nelsons with their all three forwards was far more practical than the G3's.)

 

[NHBL]

Sinking or not sinking...

Three fish is a LOT of damage, and I wouldn't rule out anything--the concern is how likely a quick sinking is. But--Churchil was the sort to look at anything, anywhere- and coul;d easily be below, in the wrong place, when the fish hit. (Perhaps checking out the impressively HUGE torpedoes in the very vulnerable torpedo flats?)

In short, I'd say almost anything could happen.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Three fish is a LOT of damage, and I wouldn't rule out anything--the concern is how likely a quick sinking is. But--Churchil was the sort to look at anything, anywhere- and coul;d easily be below, in the wrong place, when the fish hit. (Perhaps checking out the impressively HUGE torpedoes in the very vulnerable torpedo flats?)

In short, I'd say almost anything could happen.

He was there for a high level conference where the Admiralty was discussing policy and harbor defenses; I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea to hold that on a major fleet outing, rather than on dry land, but they were and nearly got torpedoed in the process. I highly doubt he would be below decks when the attack occurred, because they were in the middle of the conference at the time.

 

[Michele]

Instead of a torpedo, Churchill drinks to much whisky and slips in the shower. Now, can the thread go on?

I'd like to second that proposal. There is the fact, however, that Churchill dying before becoming PM is not exactly a new idea. I've seen lots of TLs with Halifax in his place. I'd be glad to hear more, especially if from posters more knowledgeable than me, about the alternatives.