Lusitania

Donor
So, perhaps O


So, neither Portugal nor England were interested. What about Genoa or Venice? Columbus went to both countries.
Again the issue with the Italian trading nations is that they had a vested interest in maintaining their control over the caravan and trade coming across Ottoman Empire. Plus they had to content with both Spain and Portugal able to stranglehold the entrance to the colonies by controlling entrance to Mediterranean. The Portuguese are held Ceuta and Spanish held Cadiz so either had means to cut off both countries from their colonies. So neither were interested in finding an expedition. Lastly neither of those had the shipping technology or ships to cross the Atlantic. Their ships were smaller and more suited to shallow Mediterranean and black seas.
 
Again the issue with the Italian trading nations is that they had a vested interest in maintaining their control over the caravan and trade coming across Ottoman Empire. Plus they had to content with both Spain and Portugal able to stranglehold the entrance to the colonies by controlling entrance to Mediterranean. The Portuguese are held Ceuta and Spanish held Cadiz so either had means to cut off both countries from their colonies. So neither were interested in finding an expedition. Lastly neither of those had the shipping technology or ships to cross the Atlantic. Their ships were smaller and more suited to shallow Mediterranean and black seas.
They could ally the Iberian countries, or pay them a fee. They were paying the Ottomans anyway. And about the type of ships they used, they could develop the appropriate ones, just like the Spanish and Portuguese (who are also Mediterranean) did.
 

Lusitania

Donor
N
They could ally the Iberian countries, or pay them a fee. They were paying the Ottomans anyway. And about the type of ships they used, they could develop the appropriate ones, just like the Spanish and Portuguese (who are also Mediterranean) did.
ok we grasping at trying to make things work.
First allying themselves with the Iberian nations would require them knowing or foreshadowing what was about to happen. They did not know so they could not ally themselves with the Iberians. They had a good racket going importing the goods and had no to reason to wAnt it to be taken by the Iberians who could of cut off the Italian states at any time.

Secondly the Portuguese had developed ocean going ships over 50 year period in which time Spanish had acquired the same technology and had ships ready to go. In the meantime neither Italian states had acquired the technology. If either Genoa snd Venice wanted the ocean going ships it might take them several years or even a decade to develop the ships by then the Portuguese had discovered was to India around Africa.
 
The issue with the Portuguese taking him up on his idea was that they were preparing the largest fleet the Portuguese had outfitted st time. The Vasco da Gama and neither believed in Columbus theory or able to devote enough resources to it. So theoretically they could of done it but what would be neglected to do it? Better yet throw him in prison and problem solved.

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Columbus' theory based on bad calculations on his part that led him to believe the earth's circumference was only a little more than half is actual length? Because he thought the earth was a lot smaller than it really is he believed you could get to Asia by sailing west and that you get there before you died of thirst. He wasn't believed because the actual circumference of the earth at around 25000 miles was a known fact among educated people and so they figured if you sailed west, you would die of thirst long before you got anywhere. Had there not been another continental land mass along the way, they would have been right.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Columbus' theory based on bad calculations on his part that led him to believe the earth's circumference was only a little more than half is actual length? Because he thought the earth was a lot smaller than it really is he believed you could get to Asia by sailing west and that you get there before you died of thirst. He wasn't believed because the actual circumference of the earth at around 25000 miles was a known fact among educated people and so they figured if you sailed west, you would die of thirst long before you got anywhere. Had there not been another continental land mass along the way, they would have been right.
Everyone knew the Portuguese were sailing to Africa, the gold from guinea and ivory from west Africa plus thousands of African slaves in Portugal attested fo that. They also knew the Portuguese were trying to get to India but no one knew how close they were to finding the “magical” sea route around Africa. Portuguese spies had obtained charts and maps of Indian Ocean but what was missing was finding way around África. So it makes sense that where Columbus go, the Portuguese the most advanced naval power. But unbeknown to anyone including Columbus the year before he arrived in Portuguese court they had found a way from Atlantic to Indian Ocean around Africa.

Now you be Portuguese king and his advisors, you have made a huge naval discovery and are in midsts of planning you trip to India using all your knowledge and suddenly a guy shows up stating he can get you there by a different route one using information you are leery about. What would you do? Continue your planning or devote some of your resources to this “crazy” endeavor?
 
Everyone knew the Portuguese were sailing to Africa, the gold from guinea and ivory from west Africa plus thousands of African slaves in Portugal attested fo that. They also knew the Portuguese were trying to get to India but no one knew how close they were to finding the “magical” sea route around Africa. Portuguese spies had obtained charts and maps of Indian Ocean but what was missing was finding way around África. So it makes sense that where Columbus go, the Portuguese the most advanced naval power. But unbeknown to anyone including Columbus the year before he arrived in Portuguese court they had found a way from Atlantic to Indian Ocean around Africa.

Now you be Portuguese king and his advisors, you have made a huge naval discovery and are in midsts of planning you trip to India using all your knowledge and suddenly a guy shows up stating he can get you there by a different route one using information you are leery about. What would you do? Continue your planning or devote some of your resources to this “crazy” endeavor?

Good points but you also add in Columbus making his pitch and in addition to what you detailed above, the best cartographers, geographers, and navigators in Portugal all say, "Okay, this guy is smoking something really funny, if you go west it's over 10000 miles to Asia, there is no way you can get there by going that way."
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
Again the issue with the Italian trading nations is that they had a vested interest in maintaining their control over the caravan and trade coming across Ottoman Empire. Plus they had to content with both Spain and Portugal able to stranglehold the entrance to the colonies by controlling entrance to Mediterranean. The Portuguese are held Ceuta and Spanish held Cadiz so either had means to cut off both countries from their colonies. So neither were interested in finding an expedition. Lastly neither of those had the shipping technology or ships to cross the Atlantic. Their ships were smaller and more suited to shallow Mediterranean and black seas.

The closeability of the Gibraltar straits before modern long-range artillery is a fallacy.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
Good points but you also add in Columbus making his pitch and in addition to what you detailed above, the best cartographers, geographers, and navigators in Portugal all say, "Okay, this guy is smoking something really funny, if you go west it's over 10000 miles to Asia, there is no way you can get there by going that way."

Why did the Spanish go for Columbus then?



Were they uniquely ignorant?



Or were the Portuguese uniquely informed in maritime and cartographic matters?



Would cartographic and maritime knowledge of other Atlantic states, like Navarre, France, England, Scotland or Denmark, be more similar to Portuguese erudtion or Spanish ignorance?
 

Lusitania

Donor
The closeability of the Gibraltar straits before modern long-range artillery is a fallacy.
It was not that Gibraltar was the bottleneck it was that they have to sail through hostile waters and in case of tensions and war your ships are not reaching you. It is a straight and cN be patrolled.
 
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