Could it happen at any point of history? What POD was needed?
What would be the results like?
What would be the results like?
Christians capture Mecca?
- Thread starter Rudi Maxer
- Start date
I would think Mecca would be reduced to rubble before that would be permitted.
Whodoyouthinkiam
Banned
The only time in which I could see this being even CONSIDERED, is the time of the crusades, to try to wipe out islam at its roots.
I can't really see how, though... I can definitely see the "why", but not the how.
Getting to Mecca required a LOONG walk through some of the most inhospitable terrain known to man. Doing that with a European army completely unaccustomed to the conditions, of a size that would be required, would be extremely difficult.
Secondly, it would require total Christian dominance in the Levant...which I will not rule out with a good enough POD, but I can't off the top of my head think of a way to accomplish that, assuming that everything else is per OTL.
No, its the fact that they would defend it so thoroughly that there would be nothing left standing in Mecca.
Pretty sure it's the later. Jerusalem ranks #3, it's where they think Muhammad achieved lift-off for heaven, and there was no destruction there or big surrender they fought until they were overcome.
As to the OP they might do it for a little bit. There were some raids that got pretty close during the height of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. A few things different in the Crusades and you might have someone temporarily occupying the city, pursuant to a raid. I don't think you could hope for more than that though.
Sure they could, before Islam cam about Mecca* was still an important city, and the Arabian peninsula had alot more Christian (and Jewish) people, so you could have one of the Christian Tribes from Yemen or elsewhere along the Coast of Hedjaz decide to capture it leading to them permanently occupying it and I supose founding a state with it as its capital.
*Incidentally the Kaaba, the holiest thing in Islam existed back then as well and was part an important place/thin of worship of the pre-Islamic Pagan religions in the region, so you might also see the Kaaba become an important thing in Christianity as it became in Islam.
*Incidentally the Kaaba, the holiest thing in Islam existed back then as well and was part an important place/thin of worship of the pre-Islamic Pagan religions in the region, so you might also see the Kaaba become an important thing in Christianity as it became in Islam.
There was a particularly obnoxious Crusader who'd gotten the idea of raiding Mecca and holding Mohammed's body hostage. I can't remember his name, but I think when he was captured by Muslims the other Christians were relieved.
Oh come on. The Qaramatians carted the Black Stone off to the bahrain, and nobody levelled Mecca in its defense. They even returned the stone back...eventually. But the holy site was missing a piece for a while.
The Umayyads destroyed the Kaaba itself, and it got rebuilt. Nobody razed the rest of Mecca.
I think people really overstate the level of suicidal devotion here.
The Umayyads destroyed the Kaaba itself, and it got rebuilt. Nobody razed the rest of Mecca.
I think people really overstate the level of suicidal devotion here.
No religious issue if it happened before Mohammed. Supply and logistics were not trivial problems, however, given the limited water supplies.
Otherwise the best opportunity is very early, before Islam gained its full momentum, i.e., in Mohammed's lifetime. The next best chances were (i) late in the crusades, when Reynald of Chatillon's pirate fleet in the Red Sea menaced Mecca and Medina, and (ii) immediately before the Battle of Ain Jalut, when the Mamelukes were preoccupied by the Mongol threat.
Otherwise the best opportunity is very early, before Islam gained its full momentum, i.e., in Mohammed's lifetime. The next best chances were (i) late in the crusades, when Reynald of Chatillon's pirate fleet in the Red Sea menaced Mecca and Medina, and (ii) immediately before the Battle of Ain Jalut, when the Mamelukes were preoccupied by the Mongol threat.
I've never heard of the Qaramatians before. That's pretty interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qarmatians
However, it seems the Kaaba was "collateral damage" during a siege. They didn't destroy it on purpose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate#Sufyanids
They're kind of an odd but fascinating group. I did some research on them since they became a power in my timeline for a bit.
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=108782
To be fair, history shows that while Jerusalem is #3, it's a pretty distant 3. Mecca was always the Holiest City, while Jerusalem spent much of its time languishing as a backwater (though I guess Mecca was pretty backwatery for most of its history, too).
But I generally agree that there wouldn't be a scorched-earth dealie going on.
This is the point I wanted to make. I think the easiest way is some not-as-Arab-savvy-as-possible (EDIT: or not interested in making concssions to local powers, say if fighting the Arabs) Western industrial power marching in to secure the area.