Christian "Pakistan" in the middle east

I always felt this was Israel’s plan with Lebanon in the 80s. Had this succeeded they would have an ally on their flank and the Christian Right would be even more fervently pro-Israel. I’m actually somewhat surprised the US under Reagan did not give it more support.
 
This would involve a point of divergence much earlier than 1900, but what about an alternate decline of the Ottomans, possibly involving the influence of foreign powers, that sees their empire divided not along ethnolinguistic lines, but roughly along the lines of the millet system. That is, a majority-Muslim Ottoman successor state centered in the Anatolian heartland, most of the Levant, and part of the Balkans, an Armenian state in, well, Armenia, a Jewish state in some part of our timeline’s Israel or even Salonika, and an Orthodox Christian state consisting of most of the Balkans, perhaps, some of the lands coveted in the Megali Idea concept such as Smyrna and Trebizond, and some portion of the Levant.

Extending this analogy, the Muslim state is India (ironically?), the Christian state (which would style itself as a successor to the Byzantine Empire) is Pakistan, and it could very well be that there were expulsions and population transfers carried out to make the populations of each more homogenous. There would even be disputed land somewhere as a counterpart to Kashmir - maybe Constantinople could fill that role. Anyway, time goes on and nationalism takes hold, and the Middle Eastern Christians start to lose their attachment to the Greeks, leading to secession... which, come to think of it, would mean the creation of something more akin to the Christian Bangladesh suggested earlier in the thread.
 
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By this same logic, you could say the Pashtuns and Balochs care more about their coethnics across the border than about Pakistan.
Considering Afghan effort to make ethnically based anti Pakistan movements have typically failed miserably due to a large presence of Pakistani nationalism in these communities, I guess not.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
NOTE: I do not support any such scenerio irl. This would undoubtedly be horrible for everyone involved, and make the situation quite horrible. But that said, morbid curiosity gets the better of us all.

What if there was a partition or political movement in the middle east for Christians all over the region to migrate into one area, and for the muslims of that area to migrate elsewhere? As a sort of equivalent to Pakistan, where muslims from all over south Asia went to Pakistan, and Hindus from Pakistan migrating to India.

This would include all sorts of Christians. Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Maronites, Chaldeans, Christian Arabs, even Copts if Egypt is involved in this. Muslims would include Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Druze, etc. Jews could go either way.

How could this happen? Maybe if the Ottoman Empire collapses hard on religious lines and not ethnic ones? And where would the area of Christian resettlement be? I was thinking the most plausible area would be the greater Armenia region plus Pontus, or somewhere around there.

And what would the new country be called? And how would it and its Muslim neighbor(s) handle their diplomatic relations from here on out?

Well put it this way, they'd have some serious poke as to most reports they account for 5% of the population of the Middle East at around 25 million.

Not only that Christianity accounts for 2.3% of the Indian population, around 30 million of today's population . . . would they be asked or allowed to settle?

This with Israel who would easily get most of the worlds 12 million Jews to emigrate there would be buttress against Turkey in the North, Iran in the East and S Arabia in the South

Question is, where would they all go with a population this high?

Based on Poplustat's population figures you'd easily cover Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, the Sinai and a fair whack of Northern S Arabia and Western Iraq too.

That's some migration to and fro.

You'd need a post Ottoman Empire and British & French Mandate to if not oversee it but to let it go on.
 
I can't tell if this is sarcasm, but the fact is: they probably won't.

Lebanon was set up to be Catholic (Maronite), not Christian. Maronites in Lebanon don't really get along particularly well with Orthodox churches in the country.

Maronite forces in Lebanon might welcome allies from other Christian sects, but they're not going to be hailing them as brothers-in-religion or anything.
This is quite true, but there was significant transfer of Assyrians, Armenians and other Christians in Lebanon. In some ways, its original setup as a country is closer to what happened to Pakistan than many realize, except that, of course, Maronites were specifically supposed to be the dominant group, and Muslims were never exactly excluded entirely from national identity.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Considering Afghan effort to make ethnically based anti Pakistan movements have typically failed miserably due to a large presence of Pakistani nationalism in these communities, I guess not.
Is it pakistani nationalism or self interest? pashtuns of pakistan have a lot more to gain by being citizens of Pakistan than oweing their allegiance to kabul.If pashtuns had sided with Kabul today you would not have millions of them in Karachi! And financially being business owners in Karachi and generals in pak army is far more lucrative than trying to survive in Afghanistan.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
But geographical dislocation certainly exasperated the issue, even if there where some cultural elements.
It certainly did but the key issue was not geographical isolation even if Bengal bordered punjab the separation would have happened the hatred amongst bengalis for pskistanis had reached epic proportions even before Pakistani military operation.And vicious atrocities were committed by both sides in this war not just by pak army, after this nothing short of a civil war would have ensued.
 
Considering Afghan effort to make ethnically based anti Pakistan movements have typically failed miserably due to a large presence of Pakistani nationalism in these communities, I guess not.
Well, this is my point. Who's to say a similar situation can't occur with Greeks and Armenians in this new country?

It certainly did but the key issue was not geographical isolation even if Bengal bordered punjab the separation would have happened the hatred amongst bengalis for pskistanis had reached epic proportions even before Pakistani military operation.And vicious atrocities were committed by both sides in this war not just by pak army, after this nothing short of a civil war would have ensued.
If I may ask? What made the disparity between Bengalis and west Pakistanis so huge? Why would it be any larger than the disparity between say Balochis and Punjabis?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
If I may ask? What made the disparity between Bengalis and west Pakistanis so huge? Why would it be any larger than the disparity between say Balochis and Punjabis?

How can I explain without sounding prejudiced ....
Do you understand urdu? I can post a video of a historian/ journalist
 
To succewd
It certainly did but the key issue was not geographical isolation even if Bengal bordered punjab the separation would have happened the hatred amongst bengalis for pskistanis had reached epic proportions even before Pakistani military operation.And vicious atrocities were committed by both sides in this war not just by pak army, after this nothing short of a civil war would have ensued.
It’s often forgotten is that t(e secessionist and rebels remained minority pretty much throughout 1971. One of the reasons why Pakistan Army was able to suppress the insurgency and why India had to actually invade with a 5-1 ratio.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
No I don't know Urdu sadly
To summarize
Languages and script totally different
Economically the landed aristocracy of west vs socialist leaning bengali intellectuals / leaders
Diet food and customs of east seemed alien and primitive to westerners
The west had this notion of being "martial races" restricted bengali enrollment in military
Alienation of bengalis against west by indian propaganda
Elites of west and east rarely intermarried

If you can read " Dead reckoning " by sharmila Bose a more balanced account of the war atrocities
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
To succewd

It’s often forgotten is that t(e secessionist and rebels remained minority pretty much throughout 1971. One of the reasons why Pakistan Army was able to suppress the insurgency and why India had to actually invade with a 5-1 ratio.
Secessionists maybe a minority but they had indian support even before start of the war and it is doubtful pak army suppressed their activities completely.
Bangladesh is such a difficult country to invade due to the enormous rivers and marshes.
I would be surprised if indians did not use motor boats pontoon bridges and helicopter assaults like what Iranians did in the " battle of marshes " and majnoon islands
 
To summarize
Languages and script totally different
Economically the landed aristocracy of west vs socialist leaning bengali intellectuals / leaders
Diet food and customs of east seemed alien and primitive to westerners
The west had this notion of being "martial races" restricted bengali enrollment in military
Alienation of bengalis against west by indian propaganda
Elites of west and east rarely intermarried

If you can read " Dead reckoning " by sharmila Bose a more balanced account of the war atrocities
I understand now, but I have one more quip about the language part.

Wouldn't Punjabi and Sindh be closer to Bengali than to Balochi and Pashto? Since the former 3 are indo aryan and the latter 2 are iranic?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
I understand now, but I have one more quip about the language part.

Wouldn't Punjabi and Sindh be closer to Bengali than to Balochi and Pashto? Since the former 3 are indo aryan and the latter 2 are iranic?
Not linguistically gifted but Given Afghans regularly plundered punjab for hundreds of yrs I'm assuming they could communicate better with each other than distant bengalis

Pushto and balochi like urdu are written in persian script and bengali is not

The discrimination against bengali was so bad that the guy who won Bengal for Muslim league HS suhrwardy was declared enemy agent and forbidden to travel for many yrs by west pakistan elite.
But bengalis are not completely innocent either given the way they were in no mood to compromise right from the beginning.
 
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The discrimination against bengali was so bad that the guy who won Bengal for Muslim league HS suhrwardy was declared enemy agent and forbidden to travel for many yrs by west pakistan elite.
But bengalis are not completely innocent either given the way they were in no mood to compromise right from the beginning.
WTF are you talking about. Suhrawardy was PM of Pakistan. One of three Bengali’s to be.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
WTF are you talking about. Suhrawardy was PM of Pakistan. One of three Bengali’s to be.
Excuse me ! that came later and lasted for a very short time maybe 1 yr in office , unceremoniously deposed by iskandar mirza
Read the book " the first seven PM of pakistan" it's in urdu though
 
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