Christian Japan

[Leo Caesius]

It depends, really. Buddhism didn't need to completely destabilize Asian societies in order to spread, it merely waited for new dynasties or periods of interregnum; Japan's conversion to Buddhism during the Nara period was a mostly peaceful time. Even Islam, a religion for which I have no love lost, seems to have been able to spread mostly peacefully in the area, following the trade routes through the Indonesian archipelago and all the way to the Southern Philippines.

Perhaps the trigger here is "competition" (or contact on a grand scale) rather than any individual cataclysmic event. That seems to be the trigger for evolution as well as linguistic change; the same model could probably be retooled for cultural innovations as well.

One of the problems with the form of Christianity that is most likely to be involved in the Far East during this time, Catholicism, is that it is a very monolithic, rigid, and orthodox faith. Most cultural adaptations involve a certain give and take. The forms of Buddhism and Islam practiced in East Asia are quite different from the ones practiced in their homelands. Furthermore, neither are nearly as centralized as Catholicism, which gives them greater flexibility in a new and alien situation. Catholicism could not adapt to the Near East, and so it had only two choices - either drive out the competition (as in the Philippines, with the exception of Mindanao) or perish in the attempt. The forms of Christianity practiced in places like Korea are generally evangelical, not traditional, and they are frequently heterodox; look at Reverend Moon's Unification Church.

 

[Hendryk]

Thinking about this possible and deeper hispanic presence in Japan. How could we have both cultures intermixing?

You seem to know more about Spanish culture than I do, but from what little I know of Spanish history its culture seemed particularly averse to mixing with any other, much more so than, say, the Portuguese one. The Spanish shared the Iberian peninsula with the Muslims for some 700 years and deliberately kept any cultural cross-influencing at arms' length. If they still have that mindset when they arrive in Japan, it's dubious they'll be any more willing to pick up local customs. The only way for this to happen would be the establishment of a creole society, but the old country would likely remain unaffected. Say, if the Spanish, deciding they have their hands full in Europe, decide to outsource the pacification of that new California place to Japanese ronins, with settling rights to the volunteers... Then within a few generations you may have a genuinely blended Spanish-Japanese local ruling class.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The Jesuits may have gone out of their way to try to convert nobles and leaders, but Christianity did spread a great deal among the lower classes. I believe there was a Christian peasant rising that was brutally put down somewhere.

Plus, there were 30,000 or so "hidden Christians" who survived the centuries of Shogunate persecution until the Meiji Restoration and religious freedom. The fact that many remained faithful over such a long time indicates a depth of belief.

The practices of the "hidden Christians" would not be recognizable as "Christian" by any mainstream denominations - they are quite strange. Also, that is an incredibly small number in a very large population, and most people that have any time for Christianity do not consider it an exclusive faith.

 

[Condottiero]

You seem to know more about Spanish culture than I do, but from what little I know of Spanish history its culture seemed particularly averse to mixing with any other, much more so than, say, the Portuguese one. The Spanish shared the Iberian peninsula with the Muslims for some 700 years and deliberately kept any cultural cross-influencing at arms' length. If they still have that mindset when they arrive in Japan, it's dubious they'll be any more willing to pick up local customs. The only way for this to happen would be the establishment of a creole society, but the old country would likely remain unaffected. Say, if the Spanish, deciding they have their hands full in Europe, decide to outsource the pacification of that new California place to Japanese ronins, with settling rights to the volunteers... Then within a few generations you may have a genuinely blended Spanish-Japanese local ruling class.

It was more political and religious issue than anything. The grandmother of Fernando "the Catholic" was jew, and some of the most important secretaries and ministers were of jewish origin. Charles I and his noblemen were astounded when they were invited to a tournament in Valladolid where the knights fought with scimitars while wearing turbans. Not to mention the proud Pizarro coming back to Trujillo with his wife and daughter of the last Inca he had deposed and killed or the rest of Conquistadores...

I suppose that spanish noblemen would have found apealing to marry japanese cahotlic noblewomen assuming they might get some political and economical advantages.

The idea of having this happen in California is interesting. But what about some of these ronin find that they might have a future in the European wars (japanese units in the thirty years war? Ronin in Nordlingen?).

 

[Othniel]

During the 13th century(was it 1300s) Christianity did quite well among the peasents of Fuedal Japan. This also started one of the most effective perges of all time. It may even be an Orthodox Christian Church that would make an appear if itwas dealt a blow that far east.

 

[MerryPrankster]

One of the problems with the form of Christianity that is most likely to be involved in the Far East during this time, Catholicism, is that it is a very monolithic, rigid, and orthodox faith. Most cultural adaptations involve a certain give and take. The forms of Buddhism and Islam practiced in East Asia are quite different from the ones practiced in their homelands. Furthermore, neither are nearly as centralized as Catholicism, which gives them greater flexibility in a new and alien situation. Catholicism could not adapt to the Near East, and so it had only two choices - either drive out the competition (as in the Philippines, with the exception of Mindanao) or perish in the attempt. The forms of Christianity practiced in places like Korea are generally evangelical, not traditional, and they are frequently heterodox; look at Reverend Moon's Unification Church.

Well, the Nestorians did well for themselves in Inner Asia and the Far East, though they never became the majority and they've for the most part died out (or been killed off) now.

Something tells me you knew I would bring them up.

 

[MerryPrankster]

During the 13th century(was it 1300s) Christianity did quite well among the peasents of Fuedal Japan. This also started one of the most effective perges of all time. It may even be an Orthodox Christian Church that would make an appear if itwas dealt a blow that far east.

Catholicism came to Japan in the 1600s; I think that's what you're thinking of.

Nestorian Christianity came much earlier, but it didn't make as much of a splash, though some Presbyterian writer sympathetic to the Nestorians (he wrote "By Foot to China") wrote that most Catholic Christians in Japan were lapsed Nestorians and that Christianity came to the Far East in 100-200 (probably isolated instances).

 

[Leo Caesius]

Well, the Nestorians did well for themselves in Inner Asia and the Far East, though they never became the majority and they've for the most part died out (or been killed off) now.

The Nestorians always struck me as quite decentralized and flexible. They were much more accomodating to other cultures than Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I think that explains part of their successes in Central Asia and beyond.

As for dying out, they suffered a series of persecutions and were eventually cut off from their correligionists back home. That gave the other religions with which they were in competition an edge. It's no surprise that they died out.

 

[Othniel]

Catholicism came to Japan in the 1600s; I think that's what you're thinking of.

Nestorian Christianity came much earlier, but it didn't make as much of a splash, though some Presbyterian writer sympathetic to the Nestorians (he wrote "By Foot to China") wrote that most Catholic Christians in Japan were lapsed Nestorians and that Christianity came to the Far East in 100-200 (probably isolated instances).

No it was either the 13th century or the thirteen hundreads.

 

[Bulgaroktonos]

I don't even think we need to concentrate on the Shimazu or Imagawa clans. Simply turn somebody like Takeda Shingen (perhaps the daimyo with the best shot of becoming Shogun) into a Christian, and we might get somewhere.

Perhaps have the Dutch or Portugese traders from selling the technology and instead of giving them weapons, have Portugese and Dutch soldiers fight as mercenaries in exchange for the Christianization of Japan.

Japanese Christianity would be very different. Especially if you gave the Takeda or some of the other powerful groups Christianity, they are probably going to mould it to fit their fighting for conquest.

 

[Othniel]

Or you could go the route of the early church. Constant conversion of the poor, establize enough of a base to make it so persucution is ineffective and have a Shogan convert to win the support of the lower classes.

 

[Faeelin]

How the heck would you get thousands of European soldiers to Japan in this period?

I could see a Nestorian Japan, but a Catholic one? IMO, it's not gonna happen.

This isn't the same thing as keeping japan open to foreign influences, by the way.

 

[Bulgaroktonos]

How the heck would you get thousands of European soldiers to Japan in this period?

I don't know. I was just hypothesizing on ways to make Japan Christian. Once the Europeans began trading guns and the Japanese could make them on their own, the whole strategy kinda went down hill, and Christianity slowly lost its appeal.

 

[Galbatorix]

you could get chinese catholics from the philippines whrer many chinese converted for economic advantages

maybe they could have arrived with spanish or portuguese merchants