Christian China?

[Eckener]

Is there any real way to make China a Christian state? Buddhism really started to catch on in China post-Han dynasty (200 AD). If this doesn't happen, could Christianity come in sometime between say 400-800 AD and become one of the major religions, and become adopted by the Chinese Emperors and a large number of the peasants? If not THE major religion, then the one with the largest piece of the religious pie?

What effects would this have on Asia in the long run? Because if Buddhism doesn't become widely spread in China, it probably wont spread to Korea or Japan either.....Now because of distance, I can't see Chinese Christians really being part of the Catholic or Orthodox churches. You'd probably see the emergence of some new brand of Asian Christianity that wouldn't *quite* be the same as in the west, but will serve as a sort of common ground for the future.....this would also probably mean that China does not remain so closed to the west, and doesn't remain technologically backwards during the "age of discovery" etc....

Just some random thoughts that had occurred to me before and I was reminded of them tonight as I was studying for a test I have in my Early Asian Civilization class tomorrow.

 

[Yelnoc]

Well Maharanya (sp?) Buddhism borrows a lot of Christianity. For example, they exhault Buddha to a kind of Jesus figure and picture Nirvana similiar to the Christian heaven. IMO, all you need is some more cross-cultural exchange between Judea and India into China. I would suggest having Rome conquer Mesopatamia and vassalize Persia sometime after Christianity had really developed into its own separate religion from Judaism (2nd century AD?). If Persia could then be at least semi-christianized it would greatly help the spread of Christian values into India, which could cause the still developing Maharanya Buddhism to basically become a heritical christian sect. All they really need to do is drop the belief in reincarnation and somehow acknowledge the scriptures in their Four Noble Truths and Eight-fold Path and you have something closely resembling Christianity (albeit with Buddha as a prophet alongside Jesus). It would take some work, but the religion that eventually spreads to China could basically be a bastard version of Christianity.

 

[Hermanubis]

As Russia, conquer one of the provinces of Manchuria from China, and convert it to your religion. Release it as Manchuria, and eventually it will conquer China via scripted event. After that, you will have an Orthodox Christian China as a vessel!

(More seriously, have you not heard of the Taiping Rebellion? Just have that succeed, and you have a Christian <though very heretical> Emperor of China in the 19th century. )

 

[Eckener]

Well Maharanya (sp?) Buddhism borrows a lot of Christianity. For example, they exhault Buddha to a kind of Jesus figure and picture Nirvana similiar to the Christian heaven. IMO, all you need is some more cross-cultural exchange between Judea and India into China. I would suggest having Rome conquer Mesopatamia and vassalize Persia sometime after Christianity had really developed into its own separate religion from Judaism (2nd century AD?). If Persia could then be at least semi-christianized it would greatly help the spread of Christian values into India, which could cause the still developing Maharanya Buddhism to basically become a heritical christian sect. All they really need to do is drop the belief in reincarnation and somehow acknowledge the scriptures in their Four Noble Truths and Eight-fold Path and you have something closely resembling Christianity (albeit with Buddha as a prophet alongside Jesus). It would take some work, but the religion that eventually spreads to China could basically be a bastard version of Christianity.

That is actually something I'd not thought of, though I think it is very plausible. I was more looking for a situation where Christian missionaries and traders spread their faith amongst China and just never having Buddhism in the equation much (maybe a small minority religion in China).
But your idea would be quite interesting....though you really wouldn't have much of a "common ground" area to work with when it came to Europe....they wouldn't take kindly to what they saw as an open heresy.

 

[Eckener]

As Russia, conquer one of the provinces of Manchuria from China, and convert it to your religion. Release it as Manchuria, and eventually it will conquer China via scripted event. After that, you will have an Orthodox Christian China as a vessel!

(More seriously, have you not heard of the Taiping Rebellion? Just have that succeed, and you have a Christian <though very heretical> Emperor of China in the 19th century. )

Yes I've heard of it, but I was looking for something much earlier....Buddhism was a foreign religion in China, but eventually became an integral part of more modern Chinese culture, thanks to dynasties in the early centuries spreading the religion (the Sui and the Tang, for example).

 

[Hermanubis]

Yes I've heard of it, but I was looking for something much earlier....Buddhism was a foreign religion in China, but eventually became an integral part of more modern Chinese culture, thanks to dynasties in the early centuries spreading the religion (the Sui and the Tang, for example).

Nestorian Christianity was somewhat popular with the Mongols and neighboring tribes around the 12th and 13th centuries... having the Mongols under Genghis Khan convert could be your best bet, though I can't imagine the Chinese being too keen on a religion being pushed by the Mongols.

 

[Midas]

A Nestorian Mongol-Turkic dynasty or a Taiping-type Rebellion would be the best way for giving Christianity a large base in China. However, unless you feel particularly evangelistic, basically abandon your preconceptions about how this Christianity would be structured. Any religion that settles itself in China is going to absorb a lot of the socio-cultural history and traditions of China. Even modern Chinese Islam among the Hui or Mahayana Buddhism are quite different from their origins .

I'm sure the Catholics and christians in China will still have little love for each other.

 

[Eckener]

Nestorian Christianity was somewhat popular with the Mongols and neighboring tribes around the 12th and 13th centuries... having the Mongols under Genghis Khan convert could be your best bet, though I can't imagine the Chinese being too keen on a religion being pushed by the Mongols.

This did occur to me, actually the last time I took an Asian history class. I believe some missionaries actually tried to convert the Mongol rulers of China, but failed to do so. And as you said, it would be seen as a "mongol religion" and probably not become a mainstay of Chinese society, just something that was tolerated.

Here's an idea (and forgive me because my knowledge of this time period is rather limited so I'm winging it and this may be more ASB that I realize:
-Rome conquers Persia sometime in the mid-to-late 1st or 2nd Centuries.
-Following the fall of Persia, Rome begins to push their influence on India, in an effort to control the Silk Road trade
-By the end of the 3rd Century, Persia is at least somewhat Christianized, and much of the Silk Road in India is in Roman hands either directly or through vassal states. The Romans put a higher tax on Indian merchants, and this curtails the spread of Buddhism by the Indians before it can really catch on in China.
-By the middle of the 4th Century, Christianity has spread to many parts of China, initially through merchant communities in the larger cities and then through missionary efforts. Initially, the christians are at least theoretically tied to Rome, but this fades over time and as the Empire splits apart.
-Sometime during the 4th or early 5th Centuries, many elite families begin to convert to Christianity (in order to gain favor with Roman merchants). Eventually when China is unified, the new Dynasty is headed by a Christian emperor...

 

[06294086]

Nestorian Christianity was somewhat popular with the Mongols and neighboring tribes around the 12th and 13th centuries... having the Mongols under Genghis Khan convert could be your best bet, though I can't imagine the Chinese being too keen on a religion being pushed by the Mongols.

Agreed.

Under Mongol's rule, both northern and southern Chinese Han are 3rd and 4th class citizen.

This is also one of the reason why the Yuan dynasty lasted less than a century.

It's very interesting that there are some websites out there claiming that Jesus is actually a Chinese

By the way, since you are talking about a Christian China, do you have any reason why the Chinese will be interested to adopt Christian religion before the Taiping rebeliion ?

Christianity is monotheistic while Buddhism is polytheistic; perhaps this is the reason why Buddhism is easier to adopt since they can be easily synchronized with Chinese folk religions ?

 

[06294086]

This did occur to me, actually the last time I took an Asian history class. I believe some missionaries actually tried to convert the Mongol rulers of China, but failed to do so. And as you said, it would be seen as a "mongol religion" and probably not become a mainstay of Chinese society, just something that was tolerated.

Here's an idea (and forgive me because my knowledge of this time period is rather limited so I'm winging it and this may be more ASB that I realize:
-Rome conquers Persia sometime in the mid-to-late 1st or 2nd Centuries.
-Following the fall of Persia, Rome begins to push their influence on India, in an effort to control the Silk Road trade
-By the end of the 3rd Century, Persia is at least somewhat Christianized, and much of the Silk Road in India is in Roman hands either directly or through vassal states. The Romans put a higher tax on Indian merchants, and this curtails the spread of Buddhism by the Indians before it can really catch on in China.
-By the middle of the 4th Century, Christianity has spread to many parts of China, initially through merchant communities in the larger cities and then through missionary efforts. Initially, the christians are at least theoretically tied to Rome, but this fades over time and as the Empire splits apart.
-Sometime during the 4th or early 5th Centuries, many elite families begin to convert to Christianity (in order to gain favor with Roman merchants). Eventually when China is unified, the new Dynasty is headed by a Christian emperor...

I disagree with you.

Why should the Chinese elite families convert to Christianity to gain favor with Roman merchants ?

You're implying that the dynasties at that time is not in par with their Roman counterpart.

It is a very different situation compared to those "barbarian" leaders that convert to Christianity.

 

[Midas]

Buddhism is...polytheistic? Since when. Hinduism is what you're thinking as being polytheistic, and arguably this is a very simplistic view of the religion (actually in many ways, Hinduism is often more monotheistic than trinitarian Christianity). Buddhism is non-specific on the existence of any sort of deities, though it's probably more agnostic to the idea of the existence of Gods (irrelevant I would term it as); being focused singly on liberating people from saṃsāra. So, no you're very wrong about that.

The Chinese actually already had concepts of heaven called 天 (tiān) and a very strong, imperially-supported monotheistic cult/religion of sorts called 上帝 (Shàngdì). It's really not all that implausible for a figure like Jesus to enter into the picture, and for sort of casual worship and integration of some Christian ideas into Chinese culture. A Nestoric Mongolian dynasty or a successful Taiping-like Rebellion (preferably not Taiping since in the long-term it is likely unstable and will polarize views against Christianity) that can entrench some Christian ideas will likely remain relevant politically, and perhaps even forge its own Hui-like socio-cultural religious demographic.

By the way, since you are talking about a Christian China, do you have any reason why the Chinese will be interested to adopt Christian religion before the Taiping rebeliion ?

Christianity is monotheistic while Buddhism is polytheistic; perhaps this is the reason why Buddhism is easier to adopt since they can be easily synchronized with Chinese folk religions ?

Anyone hoping for an evangelical-like mass conversion of the Chinese to Christianity however are likely going to be disappointed. The Chinese are kind of like the borg when it comes to... well anything, but focusing on ideas here- they'll assimilate Christianity in China and make it very Chinese. I imagine the bishops in Rome will still be bickering about Chinese non-compliance and the 'heretical' ideas of Chinese priests and theologians.

 

[Midas]

Buddhism had spread to China long before the 4th century. The earliest records of Buddhism are in the 3rd century B.C.E., and Siddhartha Gautma was born in the 6th century B.C.E. Conquering India by the 4th century A.D. will most certainly not curtail the eventual spread of Buddhism. Likewise, even in the very unlikely scenario that Rome somehow just forgets about all the barbarians knocking around its door (and the other odd dozen they'd get expanding across the Hindu Kush into India), the merchants who convert are likely going to end up as a type of Hui-ethnicity. It won't "seep" into the rest of the population like Europe, for dozens reasons I don't have the time to post up here.

-Rome conquers Persia sometime in the mid-to-late 1st or 2nd Centuries.
-Following the fall of Persia, Rome begins to push their influence on India, in an effort to control the Silk Road trade
-By the end of the 3rd Century, Persia is at least somewhat Christianized, and much of the Silk Road in India is in Roman hands either directly or through vassal states. The Romans put a higher tax on Indian merchants, and this curtails the spread of Buddhism by the Indians before it can really catch on in China.
-By the middle of the 4th Century, Christianity has spread to many parts of China, initially through merchant communities in the larger cities and then through missionary efforts. Initially, the christians are at least theoretically tied to Rome, but this fades over time and as the Empire splits apart.
-Sometime during the 4th or early 5th Centuries, many elite families begin to convert to Christianity (in order to gain favor with Roman merchants). Eventually when China is unified, the new Dynasty is headed by a Christian emperor...

 

[Eckener]

All good points Midas. Buddhism isn't polytheistic...it just isn't NOT polytheistic...at least from what I've read. Making sacrifices to local gods/goddesses etc is okay within buddhism as long as you are still following the 4 Noble Truths and the 8-fold Path. At least that's what the textbook I just ready more or less said.

I could see some forms of Chinese Christianity having some sort of "saving your ancestors" type of ritual, since ancestor worship is such a part of Chinese culture, predating buddhism.

And I have Rome in control of the Silk Road by the middle of the 3rd Century, in that self-admitted out there scenario.

I guess another possible PoD would be to not have buddhism spread to china at all, either by there not being any buddhism or it not becoming as popular in India and therefore never gets "exported" to china.

And for the record I knew from the outset of this thread that it is highly improbable and unrealistic....but it's still an interesting idea.

 

[Flocculencio]

All good points Midas. Buddhism isn't polytheistic...it just isn't NOT polytheistic...at least from what I've read. Making sacrifices to local gods/goddesses etc is okay within buddhism as long as you are still following the 4 Noble Truths and the 8-fold Path. At least that's what the textbook I just ready more or less said.

Yup, in Buddhism even gods, if they exist, are subject to the same consequences as humans for their actions.

Interestingly, a lot of Buddhists in South India are supposed to have converted to Christianity in the first century AD (in response to Brahminical persecution) which is part of the origin for the modern Syrian Christians of South India. Perhaps something similar might happen in China- a backlash against Buddhism driving people to seek another faith?

 

[subversivepancakes]

As several people have mentioned, the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of a Christian China is the Taiping Rebellion. It would have been extremely interesting to see how Hong Xiuquan's heterodox brand of Christianity evolved and changed over the years. Going a bit further back, it's my understanding that several of the Jesuits who came to China in the 16th and 17th centuries were fairly influential figures, and a few of them even had the favor of one Emperor or another (Adam Schall comes to mind in particular, as does Matteo Ricci). Some Jesuit missionaries converted quite a few Chinese before the tide turned against them at court, as it always seemed to in the end, and their gains were for naught. Had the Jesuits been able to stay in favor for a longer period of time, perhaps we'd see a more Christian China today - although in the scenario I've just described, I doubt that Christianity would be the majority faith; instead, the situation might be somewhat like contemporary Korea, where Christians make up a sizable minority of the population.

The Chinese are kind of like the borg when it comes to... well anything

Do you really need me to tell you how stupid this statement sounds?

 

[06294086]

Two more things to add :

If you want to make christianity as Chinese emperors' choice of state religion, something need to be done about having one wife only.

I don't think that those emperor are going to be happy with this issue.

Also, the Chinese emperors won't have anything to do with allegiance to popes; unlike their counterparts in Europe in the middle ages.

They won't care about issues like excommunications and such.

Ah yes I forgot to say that the statement about Chinese being borgs are very insulting, you shouldn't say such thing like that !

How do you feel if I say the same things about you country/ethnic group or whatever ???

 

[fortyseven]

Introduce Christianity during a "Warring States" period. Let the Chinese keep pagan customs like Europeans did. One can go for bottom up or top down approach to conversion or both. Christian beliefs are integrated with Confucianism. Emperor becomes Holy Emperor or God-Emperor. Be Afraid, be very afraid!

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Two more things to add :

If you want to make christianity as Chinese emperors' choice of state religion, something need to be done about having one wife only.

I don't think that those emperor are going to be happy with this issue.

Also, the Chinese emperors won't have anything to do with allegiance to popes; unlike their counterparts in Europe in the middle ages.

They won't care about issues like excommunications and such.

Ah yes I forgot to say that the statement about Chinese being borgs are very insulting, you shouldn't say such thing like that !

How do you feel if I say the same things about you country/ethnic group or whatever ???

It doesn't have to be Catholicism, you know.

 

[Falastur]

Nestorian Christianity was somewhat popular with the Mongols and neighboring tribes around the 12th and 13th centuries... having the Mongols under Genghis Khan convert could be your best bet, though I can't imagine the Chinese being too keen on a religion being pushed by the Mongols.

That wouldn't work. Nestorian Christianity was popular around that time because the Mongols were just reaching Europe where they could expect to conquer Christian peoples, and they were actually quite good at manipulating state-favoured religion status to suit whoever they were about to conquer. It didn't actually mean that they wanted to convert themselves, however. Kublai (I believe it was Kublai) took a Nestorian wife and toyed with the idea of some kind of conversion but it was only ever as a political tool to make the Europeans feel more accepted - he also IIRC had a muslim wife and a Mongol wife (I'm straining back three or so years to the book I read on him) and treated those religions fairly too, though there was IIRC a Ottoman-Empire-style tax on those not of a certain religion - but really, religion changed to suit the politics of the day. Had the Mongols conquered Europe and somehow not disintegrated their Empire, more likely you'd just get a situation where each of the dominant religions are given preferential treatment in their own natural geographical area, with the state being more or less favourable according to whether the adherents of a religion are stronger/weaker/more likely to cause trouble at the time. It was all about just persuading the authorities that they were happy to be vassals or subject peoples to the Mongols. The chances of a state-wide single religion with other religions suppressed is virtually zero so long as we are postulating about a united, and huge, Mongol Empire.

 

[Midas]

Ah, thanks for the patient response I must've come off a bit polemic.

Yes it is true that in Buddhism there's no explicit banning of other gods, and there's definitely no point in arguing semantics but for all intensive purposes it's still probably better to call it agnostic to the idea of gods as opposed to polytheistic .

Any sort of Christianity in China is definitely going to inherit worship of Confucius, ancestor worship, some local customs and rituals (each village will likely syncreatize them) and perhaps even more explicit alterations of the trinitarian doctrine. The guy who led the Taiping Rebellion claimed Jesus was his brother . It's just too far for regulation by the Catholic church, so Christianity in China is going to likely be very different.

I don't actually think that you don't need no Buddhism for a Christian China. They don't really wouldn't conflict a whole lot, and many Christians can still follow Buddhist traditions and ideals- much in the same way post-1300s Taoists and Buddhists got along despite being almost fundamentally opposed in philosophic tenants. Most important is the preservation of the Eastern Churches. A Christian Persia, a surviving Bactria that adopts Christianity, a No Islam PoD or Nestorian Mongols (or any of these just for a brief 1-2 century window) would all fufill the minimum needed to probably engender an eastern Christian class in China. Iotl there were Eastern Christians in China they were just so few- in the thousands, that nobody really gave them much notice. Give any of the latter their time of day, and you'll have a Christian Hui develop out of contacts along the Silk Road.

All good points Midas. Buddhism isn't polytheistic...it just isn't NOT polytheistic...at least from what I've read. Making sacrifices to local gods/goddesses etc is okay within buddhism as long as you are still following the 4 Noble Truths and the 8-fold Path. At least that's what the textbook I just ready more or less said.

I could see some forms of Chinese Christianity having some sort of "saving your ancestors" type of ritual, since ancestor worship is such a part of Chinese culture, predating buddhism.

And I have Rome in control of the Silk Road by the middle of the 3rd Century, in that self-admitted out there scenario.

I guess another possible PoD would be to not have buddhism spread to china at all, either by there not being any buddhism or it not becoming as popular in India and therefore never gets "exported" to china.

And for the record I knew from the outset of this thread that it is highly improbable and unrealistic....but it's still an interesting idea.