Christian China?

I don't think there is an explicit command in the New Testament against polygamy, except as perhaps applying to eldership ("husband of but one wife") and might have been written to apply to divorced men, not polygamists.

However, I don't think any early Christians practiced polygamy and I remember reading a book about the Nestorians about how Nestorians did NOT have multiple wives, as opposed to their pagan neighbors.

(This would have been in Persia and areas under its influence, I would imagine.)
 
Ah, thanks for the patient response I must've come off a bit polemic.

Yes it is true that in Buddhism there's no explicit banning of other gods, and there's definitely no point in arguing semantics but for all intensive purposes it's still probably better to call it agnostic to the idea of gods as opposed to polytheistic :p.

Any sort of Christianity in China is definitely going to inherit worship of Confucius, ancestor worship, some local customs and rituals (each village will likely syncreatize them) and perhaps even more explicit alterations of the trinitarian doctrine. The guy who led the Taiping Rebellion claimed Jesus was his brother :rolleyes:. It's just too far for regulation by the Catholic church, so Christianity in China is going to likely be very different.

I don't actually think that you don't need no Buddhism for a Christian China. They don't really wouldn't conflict a whole lot, and many Christians can still follow Buddhist traditions and ideals- much in the same way post-1300s Taoists and Buddhists got along despite being almost fundamentally opposed in philosophic tenants. Most important is the preservation of the Eastern Churches. A Christian Persia, a surviving Bactria that adopts Christianity, a No Islam PoD or Nestorian Mongols (or any of these just for a brief 1-2 century window) would all fufill the minimum needed to probably engender an eastern Christian class in China. Iotl there were Eastern Christians in China they were just so few- in the thousands, that nobody really gave them much notice. Give any of the latter their time of day, and you'll have a Christian Hui develop out of contacts along the Silk Road.

No worries. Obviously being that China is SO FAR from the birthplace of Christianity and is rather isolated, Chinese Christianity would by default be quite different from what it looks like in the West. But, with Rome extending into the East as far as Bactria, there would be much more contact than in OTL...(on in interesting side note, with Rome ITTL spread so much farther, I could theoretically see the Empire being split in a 3 way (West, Central, and East), and I could see the Central and Eastern Empires, without the threat of Islam, lasting MUCH longer than the Eastern Empire did OTL, even if the West falls to the barbarians, and this could lead to a lot of extended cultural exchanges to China to the point that, while Chinese Christianity would definitely be different, it wouldn't be AS different as it could have ended up if China remained more isolated....).

And, as far as the emperor converting goes, look at Rome. The Emperor, and soon after the entire Empire, converted after a VISION.....could have the same sort of thing happen in China with more Christian influence....maybe the ruling Emperor is tiring of existing religious practices, wanting something new, and has a vision or is simply approached by a Christian missionary...likes what he hears and converts. Just a thought.
 
Depends on what you consider Christian. Any form of Christianity based in China is going to have to accommodate thousands of years of Chinese cultural practices.
 
Actually, Nestorian Christianity arrived in China as early as 645, and became fairly popular, particularly in the Western provinces. It only really declined with one of the Tang emperors went on a persecution binge against any perceived "foreign"" religions (not only Christianity, but also Zoroastrianism, Manichism, and even Buddhism). This was in part due to the social and economic upheavals at the time leading to the collapse of the Tang. Keep that from happening, and you may end up with a Christian China, or at least a strong Christian majority.
 
Actually, Nestorian Christianity arrived in China as early as 645, and became fairly popular, particularly in the Western provinces. It only really declined with one of the Tang emperors went on a persecution binge against any perceived "foreign"" religions (not only Christianity, but also Zoroastrianism, Manichism, and even Buddhism). This was in part due to the social and economic upheavals at the time leading to the collapse of the Tang. Keep that from happening, and you may end up with a Christian China, or at least a strong Christian majority.

Yup, that's what wikipedia says as well. "Chinese sources describe a mission under the Persian cleric Alopen as arriving at Chang'an in 635 and establishing a church that flourished under the Tang Dynasty", and "In 845, during a time of great political and economic unrest, Emperor Wuzong decreed that Buddhism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism be banned, and their very considerable assets forfeited to the state."

What would really be needed, and it's already been said before, if for Christianity to arrive much earlier in China, around the same time as Buddhism, and that would require a further reach of Rome....and this would be where my knowledge starts to run really thin. Constantine permitted Christianity in 313....so ideally this scenario would have to have Rome conquer Persia before this.
 
Other people have alluded to this, but as long as Buddhism arrives first and establishes first, you're not gonna get a very devout Christian population. Buddhist (and Daoist) philosophy coupled with general Chinese feelings toward religion in general doesn't really support a strongly fundamental following of religion. There's a reason why I have heard Taiwan (which is arguably more religious than much of the PRC) being described as a graveyard for missionaries. Many people there just don't see the need to strictly follow specific rules in any religion. They'll be perfectly fine with praying to Guanyin and burning offerings for the hungry ghosts while at the same time going to church and calling themselves Christian. More Christianity in China just means that more Christian elements may be adopted into the culture. Most Christians elsewhere probably wouldn't even recognize them as following the same religion.
 
Other people have alluded to this, but as long as Buddhism arrives first and establishes first, you're not gonna get a very devout Christian population. Buddhist (and Daoist) philosophy coupled with general Chinese feelings toward religion in general doesn't really support a strongly fundamental following of religion. There's a reason why I have heard Taiwan (which is arguably more religious than much of the PRC) being described as a graveyard for missionaries. Many people there just don't see the need to strictly follow specific rules in any religion. They'll be perfectly fine with praying to Guanyin and burning offerings for the hungry ghosts while at the same time going to church and calling themselves Christian. More Christianity in China just means that more Christian elements may be adopted into the culture. Most Christians elsewhere probably wouldn't even recognize them as following the same religion.

Again, I recognize this. SO what would it take for Buddhism to not arrive and or not get established before Christianity......and I would argue that for the common folk, the idea of heaven and a better life after this one could be quite appealing....so starting from the bottom and working its way up much in the same was as Christianity started out in Rome (that is until the Emperor converted...which I think is a viable thing to have happen in China if the religion gets routed enough among a good portion of the population).
And yes I am very well aware that any localized Chinese Christianity will look different than Western Christianity....
 
If you want to blow up Buddhism, an Asoka PoD would actually be very helpful. It was especially through his efforts that Buddhism crossed the Himalayas into Tibet and China.

Again, I recognize this. SO what would it take for Buddhism to not arrive and or not get established before Christianity......and I would argue that for the common folk, the idea of heaven and a better life after this one could be quite appealing....so starting from the bottom and working its way up much in the same was as Christianity started out in Rome (that is until the Emperor converted...which I think is a viable thing to have happen in China if the religion gets routed enough among a good portion of the population).
And yes I am very well aware that any localized Chinese Christianity will look different than Western Christianity....
 
If you want to blow up Buddhism, an Asoka PoD would actually be very helpful. It was especially through his efforts that Buddhism crossed the Himalayas into Tibet and China.

Asoka had occurred to me....would he need to not become Buddhist? or just not push for its spread across India? Or are we talking Asoka dies before he becomes King (or whatever his title was, I forget :p)
 
Other people have alluded to this, but as long as Buddhism arrives first and establishes first, you're not gonna get a very devout Christian population. Buddhist (and Daoist) philosophy coupled with general Chinese feelings toward religion in general doesn't really support a strongly fundamental following of religion. There's a reason why I have heard Taiwan (which is arguably more religious than much of the PRC) being described as a graveyard for missionaries. Many people there just don't see the need to strictly follow specific rules in any religion. They'll be perfectly fine with praying to Guanyin and burning offerings for the hungry ghosts while at the same time going to church and calling themselves Christian. More Christianity in China just means that more Christian elements may be adopted into the culture. Most Christians elsewhere probably wouldn't even recognize them as following the same religion.

On the other hand, Chinese Christians in Singapore and Korean Christians are among the most rabid fundies on the planet- the difference here is that in these cases, Christianity was first adopted from powerful Western sources, as opposed to being a peasant religion. In Singapore, especially, Chinese Christians are more often than not middle or upper middle class and prosperity theology is making huge headway. Don't know if this is relevant but I thought it might be a useful bit of info about how Christianity has been accepted among Chinese communities IOTL.
 
On the other hand, Chinese Christians in Singapore and Korean Christians are among the most rabid fundies on the planet- the difference here is that in these cases, Christianity was first adopted from powerful Western sources, as opposed to being a peasant religion. In Singapore, especially, Chinese Christians are more often than not middle or upper middle class and prosperity theology is making huge headway. Don't know if this is relevant but I thought it might be a useful bit of info about how Christianity has been accepted among Chinese communities IOTL.

Not to mention that they don't exactly come from societies where practically everyone was Christian, like in OTL Europe.
 
Depends a lot on if Christian-As-Primary-Faith-Of-Whole-Place is important. If not, then eliminating the Mongol Conquest (and reaction against everything they stood for upon thier booting out) would increase the numbers of Christians and Muslims in the long run.

Majority? No, however between the two of them they could well be a tenth of the population (possibly more if those who make casual homages to Yēsū and Mùhǎnmòdé are counted).

HTG
 
Okay....have Ashoka die sometime before he would have taken the reigns of power in India....say 280-275 BC. Buddhism continues in India, and spreads, but at a MUCH slower rate than OTL (and Buddhism reached Korea by about 200AD OTL--according to a lecture I listened to this morning anyway).

Couple this with a Roman defeat of Persia in between 100-200AD...By 400 AD Christianity is getting into China about the same time as Buddhism. Is popular among the peasants, and amongst some middle class and especially the merchants working along the silk roads. (also china is split three ways during this time, limiting any persecution).

Shortly after Chinese unification under the Sui (or alternate dynasty) around 580-620AD (allowing for butterflies), the emperor converts to christianity (not interested in buddhism, or disenchanted with it). Encourages the spread of the religion among China. There will be backlash to this, and after a few emperors there is persecution, but never on the OTL level because there are to many chinese christians to ban the faith.

Central and Eastern Rome remain far longer than the West, and allow for more cultural exchanges between China and Rome. This keeps the Christians in china connected, though their religious practices do differ and are considered rather heretical, the more so as time goes on.

Chinese Christians continue to honor their ancestors (not so much "worship", but still very similiar) There is also the practice of "baptizing" your deceased relatives to get them to heaven...for a price, kind of like indulgences. The Chinese christians also continue to mark major non-christian religious festivals, trying to "christianize" them when possible.
 
Necro-bump.

Actually, Nestorian Christianity arrived in China as early as 645, and became fairly popular, particularly in the Western provinces. It only really declined with one of the Tang emperors went on a persecution binge against any perceived "foreign"" religions (not only Christianity, but also Zoroastrianism, Manichism, and even Buddhism). This was in part due to the social and economic upheavals at the time leading to the collapse of the Tang. Keep that from happening, and you may end up with a Christian China, or at least a strong Christian majority.

I think you're vastly overstating the popularity of Nestorian Christianity in China. I should point out that Tang Chang'an, during the reign of Xuanzong (the Emperor Ming one, not the other Xuanzong) had 3 Nestorian Christian temples that we know of. The Buddhists had at least 120 at the time. I know the Nestorians were stronger in the Western parts of China, but those areas were lost the An Lushan rebellion. I don't know what you mean by popular but Nestorian Christian influence on Chinese society was little (read, nil) if you compare it to Buddhism or Daoism, which were the really popular religions at the time. Buddhism, after all, bounced back from those persecutions due to the strength of its lay followers after Wuzong's edict was rescinded. Nestorianism had way too few adherents by the 9th century to lead to a Christian-majority China, barring major changes.

Okay....have Ashoka die sometime before he would have taken the reigns of power in India....say 280-275 BC.

3rd Century BCE? If you go that far back, you might have butterflied away a unified Chinese or Roman polity thanks to the butterfly effect.
 

Hendryk

Banned
You'd probably see the emergence of some new brand of Asian Christianity that wouldn't *quite* be the same as in the west, but will serve as a sort of common ground for the future.....
That's an understatement. As others have observed, a Chinese branch of Christianity would have very little in common with the Western denominations. If you think the Taiping were heterodox, imagine what theological alterations would have come from a millennium's worth of adaptation to Chinese civilization. Which brings us to your next point:

this would also probably mean that China does not remain so closed to the west, and doesn't remain technologically backwards during the "age of discovery" etc....
I frankly don't think it would make any difference in that regard. China only seemed "closed" to the West in the Ming and Qing dynasties, and how "open" could a thriving and self-centered civilization be anyway to foreigners who show up and want to convert your entire population by hook or by crook? Western missionaries would be no more accepting of Chinese Christianity than they were in OTL of, say, the Syriac Christianity practiced in South India--which they tried to forcibly stamp out the minute they came in contact with it. So instead of a "closed" Confucian/Daoist/Buddhist civilization, you'd have a "closed" heterodox Christian civilization.
 
That's an understatement. As others have observed, a Chinese branch of Christianity would have very little in common with the Western denominations. If you think the Taiping were heterodox, imagine what theological alterations would have come from a millennium's worth of adaptation to Chinese civilization. Which brings us to your next point:


I frankly don't think it would make any difference in that regard. China only seemed "closed" to the West in the Ming and Qing dynasties, and how "open" could a thriving and self-centered civilization be anyway to foreigners who show up and want to convert your entire population by hook or by crook? Western missionaries would be no more accepting of Chinese Christianity than they were in OTL of, say, the Syriac Christianity practiced in South India--which they tried to forcibly stamp out the minute they came in contact with it. So instead of a "closed" Confucian/Daoist/Buddhist civilization, you'd have a "closed" heterodox Christian civilization.

But if you send butterflies far enough, the nature of christianity may change, and be more tolerant of 'deviations' - MAYBE.
 
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