Chinese South America

Arrix85

Donor
Actually there's a pretty convenient circumpacific current that the Spanish used in OTL when sailing between the Philippines and Mexico, and the Chinese could use it too.

that wouldn't get them in mexica? not south america.
 
So they should have sailed south, near Australia. Why they haven't stopped there at the new continent? Or is there a settlement too?
 

Arrix85

Donor
I think the before engaging into deep-sea colonization the Chinese should concentrate on Philippines (with eventually the route to Mexico and North America) and Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Austrialia, etc... ( with the route to south america). A direct american colonization is out of question.

It's plausible given the timeframe you propose that the Chinese could try to extend their empire in south-east asia ( don't know the feasibility in the 15th century, but surely it would be easier than after the arrival of the europeans). The newly found expansionist spirit, plus the boost given by the influx of resources could then help the chinese hold off the russians.

The problem is that the consolidation of the new lands in 15th and probably early 16th century would hinder their ability to compete against spanish and portuguese for the new world (but they would the most powerful in the pacific, no doubt).
 
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I think the before engaging into deep-sea colonization the Chinese should concentrate on Philippines (with eventually the route to Mexico and North America) and Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Austrialia, etc... ( with the route to south america). A direct american colonization is out of question.

It's plausible given the timeframe you propose that the Chinese could try to extend their empire in south-east asia ( don't know the feasibility in the 15th century, but surely it would be easier than after the arrival of the europeans). The newly found expansionist spirit, plus the boost given by the influx of resources could then help the chinese hold off the russians.

The problem is that the consolidation of the new lands in 15th and probably early 16th century would hinder their ability to compete against spanish and portuguese for the new world (but they would the most powerful in the pacific, no doubt).


I think you have misinterpreted me here... The first voyage is secret history. ASSUMED secret history, and is out of my hands. Ask the theorists involved.

As to the second voyage, that is my responsibility. The sailors used the current described previously to sail to the new world, but they were headed directly FOR the new world, and thus did not stop at Australia. I made some adjustments last time I edited, I think, so please read the new revised and extended version... [I was half asleep whilst making the first one]
 
You've got some fundamental questions to answer if you wish to build a plausable TL here.

That said, your scenario is interesting. Will you be putting more meat (bredth & depth of detail) on its bones?


[Yes I will, at some point, and some good questions! If I cannot answer them here then I will certainly make the edits on the timeline.]


Originally Posted by Lord Grattan
You ask us to assume much here Rhunidian. You might wish to wave a wand and have Chinese South American Empire appear, and that's okay; but I do have a few questions before I can simply assume the things you ask:
How & why did the Chinese fleet venture to South America?

[An expedition was led around the world for trading purposes. Explained in Timeline.]

How and why were they able to establish a full fledged colony so far away from the homeland and do it so quickly?

[Not that quickly! I think my timeline's changed since these questions were asked, so some are irrelevant, but we must remember that the Chinese emperor is pleased by the goods he is sent and thus wishes to obtain more, in this case by means of a colony.]

What sparked the Imperial government's interest in exploring South America and how intense was this exploration?

[Sorry, I changed my Timeline... My only excuse is that during the first timeline I was half asleep...]

What made this venture a realistic undertaking?
Why were Chinese -Incan relations good at first?
Why did they deteriorate?
How & why does this venture become profitable and sustainable so easily?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel
You might want to take into acount that the trade winds, that helped the Spaniards reach America pretty easy and were responsible for Columbus ending up south from his starting point, would blow an asian explorer directly in the face. (Iberia had the perfect position for trans-atlantic travel, one wind brings you there, the other gets you back).

Chinese explorers would be more likely to do island hoping in Oceana and then be brought to Chile by the Southern Westerlies or use the Northern Westerlies that would wash them up in Washington State / Canada.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrix85
First, I find the idea interesting and I'll follow its development, but I have a few question:

1. Why in hell the chinese would trade gunpowder for a few spices? this is a major blunder for them, giving away a tactical advantage.

[They were, at first, the allies of the Incas. The truth is also that it isn't difficult to obtain, once you have contact with the Chinese. Picture this, an Incan entrepreneur decides to improve his status with the emperor by stealing gunpowder. I might add a little story there to make things more plausible.]

2. They're not punished for their blunder, but the Spanish will? how did gunpowder spread that quickly to Mexica? the aztec expansion seem a little fast ( since they've few horses, mobility is still a problem).

[It was a little fast, but this is the Aztec EMPIRE we're talking about here, and after you pass the other more technologically advanced nations a lot of the land conquered is desert or inhabited by less advanced tribes.]

3. What's the impact of chinese-spread diseases? probably having a big population they don't have to adopt slavery.

[The Chinese don't, the Aztecs already had it, and John Hawkins is very similar to in Our Timeline. Diseases! That is a good question I have failed to answer. As I've already reached 1550, it seems a little annoying to go back to 1421 and start butterflying the whole thing. Any suggestions?]
 
Peace and Prosperity: 1600-1700

1601: Important Mexica scientist, Atzla Cuahtemoc, discover "Greek" fire whilst attempting to replicate gunpowder. As the Mexica find it difficult to craft the correct type of metal for gunpowder weapons, and since it is a long a painstaking task to make them, Greek fire is used as an immediate replacement for gunpowder weapons, and it is extremely effective.

1606: Jamestown is founded, and British settlers begin to come to North America. Meanwhile, New France thrives and Zheng does as well. The Japanese piratical base on Vancouver island turns into two as the Japanese government offers the pirates pardon in exchange for the turning of their colony into an official colony.

1608: "New France" becomes an actual colony as opposed to a group of fur traders when Samuel de Champlain establishes a colony there. Samuel de Champlain establishes peace with the local Iroqois and also with the Mexica and the British settlers on Newfoundland.

1609-1617

Will expand later, criticism welcome.
 
OMG THANK YOU!

I've wanted someone to do a Chinese america based on that theory forever! However, I think they landed first landed in Upper Mesoamerica, not South America. Saw that somewhere before.
 
Not only you have Chinese colonies in this ATL; but you even have the Japanese ones :)

It's going to be even more interesting compared to OTL.

Your ATL is nicely written ! :cool:
 

Arrix85

Donor
A japanese colony in 1606? in North America? this is nuts. What is the PoD to justify this change in Japan? Commodore Perry traveling through time?

sorry for the remark, but I couldn't help myself.
 
I think the before engaging into deep-sea colonization the Chinese should concentrate on Philippines (with eventually the route to Mexico and North America) and Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, Austrialia, etc... ( with the route to south america). A direct american colonization is out of question.

It's plausible given the timeframe you propose that the Chinese could try to extend their empire in south-east asia ( don't know the feasibility in the 15th century, but surely it would be easier than after the arrival of the europeans). The newly found expansionist spirit, plus the boost given by the influx of resources could then help the chinese hold off the russians.

The problem is that the consolidation of the new lands in 15th and probably early 16th century would hinder their ability to compete against spanish and portuguese for the new world (but they would the most powerful in the pacific, no doubt).

I think they can get Visayas to get rid of the Pisheya pirates which terrorized china in the middle ages..
 
1601: Important Mexica scientist, Atzla Cuahtemoc, discover "Greek" fire whilst attempting to replicate gunpowder. As the Mexica find it difficult to craft the correct type of metal for gunpowder weapons, and since it is a long a painstaking task to make them, Greek fire is used as an immediate replacement for gunpowder weapons, and it is extremely effective..

Effective at what? Greek Fire was never a wonder weapon. Opposing forces would easy develop counter measures.


1606: Jamestown is founded, and British settlers begin to come to North America. Meanwhile, New France thrives and Zheng does as well. The Japanese piratical base on Vancouver island turns into two as the Japanese government offers the pirates pardon in exchange for the turning of their colony into an official colony..

When did the Japanese burst onto the North American scene? Also, Vancouver Island will definitly be called something else in TTL given the direction you're going.


1608: "New France" becomes an actual colony as opposed to a group of fur traders when Samuel de Champlain establishes a colony there. Samuel de Champlain establishes peace with the local Iroqois and also with the Mexica and the British settlers on Newfoundland.

What prompts the French to establish New France as an actual colony as opposed to it being just a bunch of fur traders in 1600? Over how long a period of time did Champlain work to establish peace with both the Iroquois and Mexica? And the British settle Newfoundland? Not likely in 1600.
 
I see

A japanese colony in 1606? in North America? this is nuts. What is the PoD to justify this change in Japan? Commodore Perry traveling through time?

sorry for the remark, but I couldn't help myself.

No, I understand, and I am coming back now to expand on my previous threads...

The Japanese navy in the 15/1600s was absolutely fantastic. In fact, up until Japanese isolationism, which in our case never occurred, these kings of the sea would be perfect for the new world, and IT SHALL BE SO!
 
Effective at what? Greek Fire was never a wonder weapon. Opposing forces would easy develop counter measures.

When did the Japanese burst onto the North American scene? Also, Vancouver Island will definitly be called something else in TTL given the direction you're going.

What prompts the French to establish New France as an actual colony as opposed to it being just a bunch of fur traders in 1600? Over how long a period of time did Champlain work to establish peace with both the Iroquois and Mexica? And the British settle Newfoundland? Not likely in 1600.


Excellent questions! I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, here are my answers.

Greek Fire: The Mexica had no way of accessing Realgar, an ingredient of gunpowder, and thus were unable to make their own gunpowder...

However, Greek Fire could most certainly have been used effectively by the Mexica, and although I'm not saying it would have won them any wars they were involved in, it would most certainly have been devastating to and enemy who doesn't know the terrain when fire which burns underwater or on flying arrows is used. Counter measures did exist but, but let's take a look at the situation...

You're walking through a dark forest in the heavy metal armour of the conquistadore. You stop and look around, nothing. Then, the forest lights up around you. Men, confused, stumble and scream through the column, and it seems that you are trapped. Suddenly, flaming arrows come whizzing down onto your column, and you realize you must get out. Baking in the heat of the fire, you try waiting it out for the fire to stop, but it is a long time before it does.

By the time it IS out, everyone in your column is dead. That is Greek Fire.
 
Japanese Colonization & New New France

The Japanese had one of the greatest fleets in the world, and with China expanding into the New World, it is nigh impossible that they would not have followed suite in some way or another, even if it is through escapee pirates in this case...

Colonies have been begun for less plausible reasons...

As for the earlier New France, this is all tied in to the Spanish having to send more military/colonists etc. to the new world and thus France being more worried about protection...
 
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