chinese naval voyages after zhen he

The reason China stopped sending out voyages is that the Ming turned inward, so that would have to be changed. If that changed China could well discover America, but I don't know if they would colonize it. How much interest they have is entirely dependent on where they land. If they land around the current US West Coast then they probably make some notes and move on (not a lot of trade to be done and the Chinese probably aren't interested in conquest at this time). However if they land in Mexico or Peru then things get interesting. I could see the Chinese establishing extensive trade relations with the Aztecs, Maya (although they might have collapsed by then, I can't remember), and Inca. Diseases would kill off many of these people, but with guns and more resistance to disease by 1492 they would be in a far better position to fight off the Europeans.
 
Not many ports/significant rivers along the Pacific Northwest Coast. They would have to sail all the way to Mexico before they found significant trading ports.
 

RousseauX

Donor
The reason China stopped sending out voyages is that the Ming turned inward

It's really really not.

It was stopped because they were never economically viable journeys, the people undertaking them take a loss. Which means of course that the moment the treasury starts to experience problems the treasure fleet goes.
 
Not many ports/significant rivers along the Pacific Northwest Coast. They would have to sail all the way to Mexico before they found significant trading ports.

As I said above I think it depends on where they land and how much they explore. If they land in Vancouver Island and sail to California they probably conclude "nope, nothing valuable here" and America is just a cool thing they found. If, however, they land in Mexico or Peru, they discover large civilizations with lots of gold and very little in the way of horses, guns, or steel. I can see some Chinese trader deciding "I trade them guns and horses in exchange for lots of gold and silver."
 
Not many ports/significant rivers along the Pacific Northwest Coast. They would have to sail all the way to Mexico before they found significant trading ports.

What do you mean by "significant rivers"? I would call the Fraser and the Columbia "significant" to say the least. Certainly not as important as the St. Lawrence or Mississippi but certainly much more significant that, say, the Hudson.

If you're meaning in terms of the presence of a civilization using those rivers as farmland, then yes, most of the Pacific Northwest Natives were non-agricultural. However, they did have lots to offer Europeans in terms of trade in the form of furs and fish, and especially lumber, and the Chinese might be interested in both (to be honest, they probably have better sources of all of these closer to home: furs and lumber in was is now the Russian Far East, fish I'm not sure where).

If you're meaning in terms of inland navigation, then the Fraser and Columbia both have way too many rapids/gorges to get much distance inland. Maybe that's how I should interpret "significant rivers". It makes the most sense....
 
Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga) succeeded in re-establishing the Ming Dynasty with his own family as dominant aristocracy, or establishing his own dynasty.

The Zheng clique was seaborne from the very beginning, engaging in sea trade and piracy from their base in Amoy, and later in Taiwan.

I think they understood the sea much better than the Qing did.

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Or else, have one of the Ming heirs fleeing overseas, to Japan or Java, or Sri Lanka, which drive the Qing into a frenzy, who sent a fleet all over he world searching for the lost prince XD

(While this particular scenario was unlikely, it's how the Qing historians described the motivation behind Cheng Ho voyages.)
 
Would any of the people on the west coast of north america take up chinese culture after contact in the same way that ancient japan did?
 
America is probably the least likely destination for Chinese naval voyages.

Zheng He was not exploring unknown seas, his expeditions were traveling along established maritime routes, areas with significant trade with China already. On the other hand, the Pacific is mostly either empty or with a tiny scattered atolls, which would be of no interest to the Ming even if they encountered them. Even the European navigators didn't start off sailing into oblivion to see what was there; they attempted to get to India and Columbus discovered an extra continent in the way.

The Pacific is also huge relative to the Atlantic (as an example: Seattle, Washington is actually slightly closer to Madrid than it is to Beijing, despite being on the "west" coast). Even if the Chinese fleets did sail west a long distance (seeing nothing but ocean the whole way), they would almost certainly turn back before they came anywhere near the Americas; there's no point in an expedition through empty seas (and navigation becomes increasingly difficult).

So rather than an extremely unlikely voyage to the Americas, a more fruitful line of speculation would be about the effects of continued Zheng He style expeditions on Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean states.
 
The Chinese probably wouldn't sail for the Americas on their own, but once they learn about them from the Europeans its possible they might send some ships that way. My understanding was that China didn't get a full world map from the Jesuits until 1602, but what they heard beforehand, or what they might learn had their naval voyages kept them in closer contact with the west, I don't know.
 
As I said above I think it depends on where they land and how much they explore. If they land in Vancouver Island and sail to California they probably conclude "nope, nothing valuable here" and America is just a cool thing they found. If, however, they land in Mexico or Peru, they discover large civilizations with lots of gold and very little in the way of horses, guns, or steel. I can see some Chinese trader deciding "I trade them guns and horses in exchange for lots of gold and silver."

Would the people in Mexico be better at protecting themselves against the Spanish if they got guns from the Chinese? Also what would happen to people living further north if there waz an established trade route with Mexico? Would they be wiped out by Chinese or would they establish their own kingdoms influenced by China?
 
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America is probably the least likely destination for Chinese naval voyages.

Zheng He was not exploring unknown seas, his expeditions were traveling along established maritime routes, areas with significant trade with China already. On the other hand, the Pacific is mostly either empty or with a tiny scattered atolls, which would be of no interest to the Ming even if they encountered them. Even the European navigators didn't start off sailing into oblivion to see what was there; they attempted to get to India and Columbus discovered an extra continent in the way.

The Pacific is also huge relative to the Atlantic (as an example: Seattle, Washington is actually slightly closer to Madrid than it is to Beijing, despite being on the "west" coast). Even if the Chinese fleets did sail west a long distance (seeing nothing but ocean the whole way), they would almost certainly turn back before they came anywhere near the Americas; there's no point in an expedition through empty seas (and navigation becomes increasingly difficult).

So rather than an extremely unlikely voyage to the Americas, a more fruitful line of speculation would be about the effects of continued Zheng He style expeditions on Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean states.

Exactly right, my voyages were not voyages of exploration into Terra Incognito. They were missions to establish a larger Chinese presence on well known and established trade routes. There was simply no reason for my fleets to sail east into the vast wasteland of the Pacific Ocean or around the Horn of Africa as that nut Gavin Menzies suggests.

However, had the imperial court seen fit to continue a Chinese maritime presence in the Indian Ocean it would have been interesting to see the reaction of Portuguese when they showed up off East Africa in their pathetic little caravels and encountered majestic Chinese trading junks.
 
Exactly right, my voyages were not voyages of exploration into Terra Incognito. They were missions to establish a larger Chinese presence on well known and established trade routes. There was simply no reason for my fleets to sail east into the vast wasteland of the Pacific Ocean or around the Horn of Africa as that nut Gavin Menzies suggests.

However, had the imperial court seen fit to continue a Chinese maritime presence in the Indian Ocean it would have been interesting to see the reaction of Portuguese when they showed up off East Africa in their pathetic little caravels and encountered majestic Chinese trading junks.

>my

Hue
 
It's really really not.

It was stopped because they were never economically viable journeys, the people undertaking them take a loss. Which means of course that the moment the treasury starts to experience problems the treasure fleet goes.

America is probably the least likely destination for Chinese naval voyages.

Zheng He was not exploring unknown seas, his expeditions were traveling along established maritime routes, areas with significant trade with China already. On the other hand, the Pacific is mostly either empty or with a tiny scattered atolls, which would be of no interest to the Ming even if they encountered them. Even the European navigators didn't start off sailing into oblivion to see what was there; they attempted to get to India and Columbus discovered an extra continent in the way.

The Pacific is also huge relative to the Atlantic (as an example: Seattle, Washington is actually slightly closer to Madrid than it is to Beijing, despite being on the "west" coast). Even if the Chinese fleets did sail west a long distance (seeing nothing but ocean the whole way), they would almost certainly turn back before they came anywhere near the Americas; there's no point in an expedition through empty seas (and navigation becomes increasingly difficult).

So rather than an extremely unlikely voyage to the Americas, a more fruitful line of speculation would be about the effects of continued Zheng He style expeditions on Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean states.

These .
 
Even assuming say a reasonably sized expedition of say 2 or more Chinese ships reaching Australia or New Zealand in the 15th century, what on earth would they do next? Go back home with some maps and worn out ships? What would a Chinese imperial court be expected to do with this information?

Sail for several months or so, through dangerous, uncharted waters and you will find empty or sparsely populated lands where resupply is awkward at best?
 
It's really really not.

It was stopped because they were never economically viable journeys, the people undertaking them take a loss. Which means of course that the moment the treasury starts to experience problems the treasure fleet goes.

It wasn't just the treasure fleets though (although I agree that if they'd been profitable they'd probably have continued), the Ming really did turn inwards. Several times between 1300 and 1600 all maritime shipping was banned and anyone living near the sea across several regions were moved inland to keep them from interacting with foreigners.
 
As I've said (repeatedly :) ) one incentive for the Chinese is the sea otter trade. The profit from selling sea otter pelts to China was enough to support Russian Alaska.

Once a Chinese expedition makes a huge profit by their first consignment, there's an incentive for others to follow. And of course follow the coast from Alaska down to California as they gradually drive them extinct.

Might be enough to get settlements established, at first to support the traders; then on their own behalf.

But it is a hell of a long way.
 
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