Chinese fleets sail out... somewhere scenarios

There have been many "what if the Chinese discovered America" threads but I want to boil down the concept further. Ancient China had, in various dynasties from the Song onwards I reckon, the capacity to build huge navies and ships carrying a thousand men or something like that. We always talk about Ming treasure fleets discovering the Americas, but I'm sure they could have gone somewhere else as well.

What would be some possible scenarios for China to lose a fleet or two of several thousands of Chinese sailors and soldiers? I was considering perhaps in the case of the fall of the Southern Song, remnants under Zhang Shijie might flee outside of China. Maybe they might have even brought the Song heir with them, and more of the court (instead of all going into the drink at the Battle of Yamen). Perhaps the heirs of Koxinga don't simply let the Qing take over Taiwan, but instead sail southwards to the Philippines, or north to the Ryukyus, or wherever. Finally, I get the idea that China was big enough for it to lose a few fleets in a semi-mythical manner- say we have a crazy admiral go off on an exploration with several ships and are never seen again. Or because they left the court in disgrace. Or because they did so on because of political intrigue. And so on.

That said, afterwards, where could those fleets possibly end up at, logistically speaking? Luzon? Japan? The East Indies? Australia?

And finally, could the presence of several thousand Chinese exiles make any difference to the place they end up at? Could they alter the local culture enough to create a hybrid Han civilization that ends up rediscovered hundreds of years later? I mean, that's kind of what happened in Taiwan with the Ming loyalists anyway. But what about someplace that's not immediately next to China?
 
Qin Shi Huang sent a fleet of three thousand virgin men to a mythical land in the east in search of an immortality elixir, and promised to execute them if they returned empty-handed. There are theories about a single event of mass settlement in Japan and contributing to the abrupt transition between the Jomon culture and the Chinese-derived civilization, though it was a period of steady migration from the mainland to the islands.
 
There have been many "what if the Chinese discovered America" threads but I want to boil down the concept further. Ancient China had, in various dynasties from the Song onwards I reckon, the capacity to build huge navies and ships carrying a thousand men or something like that. We always talk about Ming treasure fleets discovering the Americas, but I'm sure they could have gone somewhere else as well.

What would be some possible scenarios for China to lose a fleet or two of several thousands of Chinese sailors and soldiers? I was considering perhaps in the case of the fall of the Southern Song, remnants under Zhang Shijie might flee outside of China. Maybe they might have even brought the Song heir with them, and more of the court (instead of all going into the drink at the Battle of Yamen). Perhaps the heirs of Koxinga don't simply let the Qing take over Taiwan, but instead sail southwards to the Philippines, or north to the Ryukyus, or wherever. Finally, I get the idea that China was big enough for it to lose a few fleets in a semi-mythical manner- say we have a crazy admiral go off on an exploration with several ships and are never seen again. Or because they left the court in disgrace. Or because they did so on because of political intrigue. And so on.

That said, afterwards, where could those fleets possibly end up at, logistically speaking? Luzon? Japan? The East Indies? Australia?

And finally, could the presence of several thousand Chinese exiles make any difference to the place they end up at? Could they alter the local culture enough to create a hybrid Han civilization that ends up rediscovered hundreds of years later? I mean, that's kind of what happened in Taiwan with the Ming loyalists anyway. But what about someplace that's not immediately next to China?
Actually, Chinese migrating to/conquering the Philippines or any place near China is a Cliche in this board.

Many of the people near china actually hate china so these sailors might end up killed.
 
They don't have to conquer, though, maybe just carve out their own niche. I haven't seen a good "Chinese settle the Philippines" timeline yet though I guess I haven't been looking hard enough. I see a bunch of discovering the New World ones though.

I wonder, could ocean currents take them to Central or South America? Or maybe just the southern Pacific islands?
 
I wonder, could ocean currents take them to Central or South America? Or maybe just the southern Pacific islands?

Central or South America? Not really, or at least not without running into North America first.

wsci_03_img0381.jpg
 
You still got the problem of the 3000 virgin girls who probably have higher expectations of their first time. :p
 

amphibulous

Banned
Qin Shi Huang sent a fleet of three thousand virgin men to a mythical land in the east in search of an immortality elixir, and promised to execute them if they returned empty-handed. There are theories about a single event of mass settlement in Japan and contributing to the abrupt transition between the Jomon culture and the Chinese-derived civilization, though it was a period of steady migration from the mainland to the islands.

If this is the fleet I'm thinking of then, according to Needham, the "admiral" told the emperor that he had already found the elixir - but that its owners required several thousand craftsmen in payment. And a matching number of maidens.

No one in China ever found out what happened to the crafty sod...
 
I think the Ming period gets a lot of attention because there is a lot of information on it. But in my reading I have found snippets of info on earlier periods, I`ve read that during the Song period 200 foot 4 masted ocean going junks were around. It is probably on the groundwork laid by the these ships in the past that allowed the Ming to build the Treasure Fleet and know where they were going and for what purpose.
 
Exactly. So conceivably there were many times in Chinese history where some random huge-ass boats could have been misplaced and created a lost colony.
 
Yep, Ive read that even in antiquity the Chinese knew about the coast of Africa all the way down to Sofala.

How about Chinese merchant `Quarters` in port cities around the Indian Ocean the way the Italian merchant cities had them in the Med? That would count I`d think.
 
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There is an annoyingly persistent theory that Chinese sailors & miners settled NZ around 200 BC or so, with Melanesian slave wifes, resulting in the Maori race. I think Menzies is one of the prime pushers


http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2008/01/good-bookshop-lousy-book.html

There's another theory that says that the Chinese tried to establish a colony on Cape Breton Island, in Nova Scotia.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2006/07/27/capebreton-chinese.html
 
Which should discredit it immediately.

Well certainly to any right thinker. However he was wildly popular for some reason

This issue gets a little political though, as you would imagine.

In NZ, we have our own distinct lens to view this kind of thing through. For some reason, a lot of NZers seem willing to believe there were substantial pre Maori settlers to NZ, who the Maori supplanted, who in turn were supplanted by my ancestors.

It seems some of these people want to believe because they think it somehow bolsters their position versus the Maori. As you would expect from a settler country, there has been about three-four decades of discussion and negotiation between the Crown and the Maori tribes over the treaties and compensation. This has been very political and some anti settlement/treaty people have latched upon the theory that if hte Maori supplanted a previous race, then somehow the Crown would not owe the Maori anything. This makes no sense so far as the law goes, but there you have it.

My father for one believes Menzies has a point. I've debated this endlessly with him, but he won't be convinced. Quite why a 5th generation NZ European citizen is so attached to the theory of Chinese Miners/Melanesian slave woman descent is still rather confusing.
 
I always like "What if China discovers Antarctica?" because it would be completely useless but a hell of an effort

AND we'd have Chinese penguins

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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