Chinese "discovery" of Western Europe in 1421/34

I was pointing out that China should change it's own cultural ideology in order for it to expand and try to go to far off lands and exploit those lands.

For what benefit? If China really wanted to conquer as much as they could, there are plenty of targets much closer to home to play with. Like Korea, Japan, Vietnam, the Phillipines, Indonesia, etc. (Note, I'm being anachronistic on purpose)
 
I was pointing out that China should change it's own cultural ideology in order for it to expand and try to go to far off lands and exploit those lands.

Ah, quite. The ingrained cultural assumption that nothing outside China had any inherent value was a major stumbling block in this regard. The Chinese had no lack of exploitative inclination, but by not trading much abroad (relative to the Europeans, Arabs, or even Indians) they kept it close to home.

Hrm. One of the few exceptions to this navel-gazing was Buddhist thought, which very strongly held China to be a less holy place than India. Perhaps if China had truly gone Buddhist to the point where it replaced Chinese-ism (which, in practice, Confucianism tended to be) it would have been more outward looking.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I know the Chinese 'discovered' a good part of world, based on the books of Menzies (1421 and 1434).

Spinning red lights are now flashing throughout AH.com and the sirens have begun wailing!

We have a Menzies Alert, people! Every man to his post!
 
Anaxagoras: I said sorry! (giggling)

But it surely got attention.


It is in"" because it has always been there.

On a serious note: I see the difference between a voyage of discovery - i.e. South America and a voyage of trade i.e. tribute.

If we still acknowledge that the Chinese at the time had visited the Med, knowiong about Venice, Genoa, etc etc. we should see some records (outside of Menzie, OK).

Now, if we reject Menzie, do we thereby also say the Chinese did not kow about Europe and West Africa?

Not visiting Western Europe is like saying "I want to go to Jupiter's moon, because it is empty, not to Mars. I know there are civilisations on Mars, but i feel like skipping that part". Not even NASA could justify it.

So, were they voyages of discovery or tribute?

ivan
 
On a serious note: I see the difference between a voyage of discovery - i.e. South America and a voyage of trade i.e. tribute.

If we still acknowledge that the Chinese at the time had visited the Med, knowiong about Venice, Genoa, etc etc. we should see some records (outside of Menzie, OK).

Now, if we reject Menzie, do we thereby also say the Chinese did not kow about Europe and West Africa?

If we reject Marco Polo, do we thereby say the Europeans did not know about China? Of course not. Now, very likely most Chinese didn't know a thing about Europe, but all anyolne with an interest in these matters had to do was ask an expert. From China's POV, the experts on Europe were the Persians, Arabs and Turks. With a ready source of knowledge at hand, why would they need to go exploring themselves? And if they did - which is really not at all unlikely - why would that do so in ships? The idea that explorers come in big boats is a European conceit. If the Chinese court had a genuine interest in getting a first-hand description of Europe, the natural thing to do would be to put some scholars and artists on a regular passenger ship to Calicut or Mecca. From there, they could take passage to Syria or Egypt, and then book a trip across the Mediterranean. Alternatively, you could put them on horses and send them off along the Silk Road till they reached Ottoman territory. From then on, it's all civilised lands until you hit Hungary.


Not visiting Western Europe is like saying "I want to go to Jupiter's moon, because it is empty, not to Mars. I know there are civilisations on Mars, but i feel like skipping that part". Not even NASA could justify it.

Oh dear. Western Europe was not the civilised countrerpart at the end of a howling wilderness that the Chinese vainly struggled to contact. It was a moderately interesting, but largely familiar variation on the theme of "civilisations of the far west". The Chinese had information, but really no pressing need to go. Any voyage to Europe would not have been a voyage of explopration, but simply one of going-somewhere-you've-heard-of-but-don't-particularly-care-about.

Seriously, this is a bit like asking what band people in Central Africa were fans of in the 1960s, since it wasn't the Beatles. The answer is, no band. Going off in ships at random to smash up natives, grab loot and draw maps was a European thing. The Chinese were into power projection, but not like that.

So, were they voyages of discovery or tribute?

On the first point, not likely, since the Chinese had no need to dioscover Europe. They knew where it was and what it had to offer. On the second point, no, because the Chinese had no way of extracting tribute from Europe.
 
Seriously, this is a bit like asking what band people in Central Africa were fans of in the 1960s, since it wasn't the Beatles. The answer is, no band. Going off in ships at random to smash up natives, grab loot and draw maps was a European thing. The Chinese were into power projection, but not like that.

Though they do seem to have engaged in their share of imperialism.

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps04_031.pdf

Overseas as well as overland.
 
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Though they do seem to have engaged in their share of imperialism.

http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps04_031.pdf

Overseas as well as overland.

Sure, power projection. But more like the Roman or Ottoman model. They didn't really go in for sending armed ships into the unknown in order to bring back valuable stuff as and when the opportunity presented itself. That's a European thing. Now, if China had a border with Western Europe, or a credible reason to be concerned, they might well have decided to send a fleet their way. But here we'd effectively be talking about state-sanctioned piracy.
 
Sure, power projection. But more like the Roman or Ottoman model. They didn't really go in for sending armed ships into the unknown in order to bring back valuable stuff as and when the opportunity presented itself. That's a European thing. Now, if China had a border with Western Europe, or a credible reason to be concerned, they might well have decided to send a fleet their way. But here we'd effectively be talking about state-sanctioned piracy.

Agreed.

Just wanted to show what kind of projects China did go for in more detail.
 
According to Menzie they were aware of Europe, so why not pop by?

I'd just like to add that the idea of China being aware of Europe is not a controversy in the least. You're treating the relationship between China and Europe as if it's parallel to Europe's consciousness of the Aztecs and Mayans before 1492. China didn't need to "discover" anything, because China and Europe were never isolated from one another. Chinese texts recorded knowledge of Europe at least as early as Roman times, over two thousand years ago. China is present on Ptolemy's maps. Medieval explorers such as Marco Polo and Ibn Battuta freely roamed between Europe and China.
 
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