China's contribution to Japans defeat in WW2

Japan's war with the west was all about China. They needed the raw materials that the west was either not selling to them or that they could less and less afford to pay for. A secondary reason was the war material the west was sending to China, although even before PH much of that supply line had been greatly narrowed due to basically no sea access to China trade for the west, only overland. As had been noted, China was a vast sponge that absorbed most of the IJA and a ton of Japanese war materiel. Had there not been an embargo and had the west not been so supportive of China in many ways, it is possible Japan could have forced some sort of war termination that was immensely favorable to them. Some sort of ending where Japan ruled much of China like they did Korea was a fever dream for fanatics - too much China and too little Japan.
 
Not something I have thought about before but I wonder how far the Japanese could have gone without the US getting involved. For instance, could they have attacked Singapore and the US not gotten involved, what about Burma?

I mean, if they avoided US territories or threatening the US I wonder if America would have let them do what they wanted. I know the British were not exactly in a position in early 1942 to be taking on the baulk of the Japanese Navy and Army so the Japanese would have been able to take these lands quite easily.

no, u.s. was going to be involved.
 
This comment will be adjacent to the main point of the thread, but there is a (probably fair) argument that the Soviet contributions to the fight against Nazi Germany were generally underplayed in the West during the latter part of the 20th century as a result of the Cold War.

I wonder if it would be the case that in a world where the KMT has defeated the Communists in the Chinese Civil War, or at least held a substantial amount of southern mainland China, and the Republic of China had remained an ally of the United States during the Cold War, the Chinese contributions to defeating the Japanese during the Pacific War would have been more strongly emphasized in Western culture.
 
I read that Japan and China KMT had an unofficial ceasefire throughout most of ww2 which although was broken a few times basically meant that China and Japan just waited out the war in China. Does anyone have any knowledge or thoughts on this?
 
I think it's important to remember that for Japan the ultimate war goal was China's submission. The Pacific affair was only a secondary theater that came into play due to Japan's lack of resources to win the war on the Asian continent.

I once read that the great majority of Japanese troops (4/5?) was actually deployed in China and Asia. Only a tiny fraction of the Japanese army actually fought American troops in the Pacific.

So I would argue that China's contribution to the Allied victory against Japan was quite sizeable, and by recognizing China as an equal power (permanent member of the UN security council) they acknowledged that.
 
I read that Japan and China KMT had an unofficial ceasefire throughout most of ww2 which although was broken a few times basically meant that China and Japan just waited out the war in China. Does anyone have any knowledge or thoughts on this?

Bullshit
 
Maybe but it does appear that the war in China was very quiet, the only time it heated up was when the Americans did something like the Doolittle's raid and the Japanese felt provoked.

I'm sceptical. The KMT might have wanted to wait things out but Mao and his bunch certainly didn't, and they were entirely willing to include the KMT on the chopping block if they weren't enthusiastic about fighting their common enemy. Here in the West we don't hear much about the war in China, but I think that's more a failure of access to information about it rather than there being no activity to report. We don't hear much about the partisan campaigns in Eastern Europe either, and for similar reasons, but what we do know is enough to make it clear there was an ample supply of violence at all times. If we had a similar level of access to sources about the war in China, I suspect we would learn similar things.
 
It is interesting because even in late 41 the US public was very against getting involved in a war, so short of them being attacked I don't think Roosevelt would have gotten involved as he knew if he did then it would mean probably losing the next election.
Going to point this out, but by September 16, 1940, 52% of Americans prefered the US help England even at the risk of war. For reference, June of the same year (I.E Fall of France)only 35% did.

By election time that year, it was at 60%. By November 26 of 1941, 68% polled in favor of defeating germany over staying out of war. When Pearl Harbor happened, the US was already well and truly primed for the possibility that not only will they end up at war, but that it would be the US itself that decided to enter. Pearl Harbor didnt convince people to support War.

All it did was give Americans the ability to feel rightous about going to war.
 
I'm sceptical. The KMT might have wanted to wait things out but Mao and his bunch certainly didn't.


If you go here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_battles

There is not much about Mao and communist doing many battles either against the Japanese and I am sure we have enough information to know if such battles did take place we would know about it. The other point is both the KMT and Mao, considered each other the main enemy so the top priority for each was not Japan.

Also, looking at the list, I saw that there are a lot more battles before Pearl Harbor then after. Every year there is a lot of battle in 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941 and then not much.

It could be argued that after Pearl, the Chinese never got the supplies and equipment they needed to go on the offensive, so they went on a defensive posture. The Japanese had more important objectives then so the front stabilised. Both knew that the war would be won or lost on other fronts.

Whether there was something informal in place would be interesting to know.
 
Maybe but it does appear that the war in China was very quiet, the only time it heated up was when the Americans did something like the Doolittle's raid and the Japanese felt provoked.

If there was a "ceasefire" between the IJA and the KMT one expects the IJA to be able to shake loose more than 11 divisions against the Wallies. If there was a ceasefire the Japanese must have broke it fairly often considering things like Ichi-Go and Sei-Go not to mention the Chinese contribution to Burma
 
It always baffled me as to why the Japanese got involved in China in the first place. Other then a 'War Game' scenario for the hot headed Army commanders there really was no strategic value in mainland China. The natural resources of the mainland were certainly not worth the effort. Taking some Northern territory to straighten the line between Manchuria and Mongolia might have made some sense. Taking Formosa and Hainan made strategic sense giving them bases along the route to the areas they needed to attack. Trying to absorb all of China is a fools dream. Going North against the SU made much more strategic sense if Japan was trying to become self sufficient in natural resources. However the SU showed Japan how unprepared they were to fight a combined arms type of war during the border skirmishes.

Japan's best play was to go after British, Dutch and French resource rich islands in 1940. They should have done everything possible to not get the US involved and afterwards made a big play to the League of Nations as to how much better these colonies were with Japan administering them. That was their chance, take those areas and then go big time PR as to how Japan would make them better then the former administrators.
 
If Japan is not fighting in China, they have no reason to attack the west as there will be no creeping embargo and their finances will be in much better shape. If Britain is fighting German troops in Kent, then trying to grab resource rich areas makes some sense even in the absence of a war in China. The problem is military expansionism in DEI/Western Pacific risks war with the USA. It cannot be stated often enough that Siberia, especially Eastern Siberia, other than lots of trees had very few natural resources the Japanese might want. The oil and gas and other resources were simply undiscovered in 1941. Going north, especially in conjunction with the Germans chewing up the USSR in the west, was more about eliminating the "communist threat" of the USSR than seizing tons of resources.
 
I remember reading somewhere that Chiang was hoarding war material for the inevitable clash with Mao once the Japanese were defeated...
 
I remember reading somewhere that Chiang was hoarding war material for the inevitable clash with Mao once the Japanese were defeated...

This claim was also made by Chiang against Mao. I suspect that both did it.


If there was a ceasefire the Japanese must have broke it fairly often considering things like Ichi-Go and Sei-Go not to mention the Chinese contribution to Burma

The primary goals of Ichi-go and Burma had nothing to do with China as such but much more Americans and British. Not sure what you mean about Sei-Go, please explain?
 

trurle

Banned
If there was a "ceasefire" between the IJA and the KMT one expects the IJA to be able to shake loose more than 11 divisions against the Wallies. If there was a ceasefire the Japanese must have broke it fairly often considering things like Ichi-Go and Sei-Go not to mention the Chinese contribution to Burma
Not ceasefire, but significant lull in fighting. Fighting intensity between IJA and KMT has dramatically diminished in 1942-1944 period compared to 1940-1941. Mostly because Japanese forces requests for most offensives were turned down due lack of war materials. Positions of both IJA and KMT become increasingly entrenched during that period, although it was still far from positional warfare of WWI.
Local ceasefire or even IJA/KMT collaboration also existed in Shanxi province due common animosity against communists.
 
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