China joins the Central Powers

I just saw something recently on the Military Channel about Japan's involvement in WW1. Apparantly Japan took the German colony at the Chinese city of Tsingtao, but instead of landing in German territory, the land some miles away on Chinese land, much to Chinese protest. It kinda made me think that if Germany really pressed China on the issue, saying that Japan covets Chinese territory as well as the German colonies, would China enter the war on Germany's side and how effective would they have been, since they were cut off from their prospective European allies.

What does everyone here think? I think it would be quite interesting. China could take Vladivostok, knock Japan out of Korea, diminish the allied imperial presence in India and Indochina, possibly causing mass rebellions against their European masters. Just some ideas.
 
I just saw something recently on the Military Channel about Japan's involvement in WW1. Apparantly Japan took the German colony at the Chinese city of Tsingtao, but instead of landing in German territory, the land some miles away on Chinese land, much to Chinese protest. It kinda made me think that if Germany really pressed China on the issue, saying that Japan covets Chinese territory as well as the German colonies, would China enter the war on Germany's side and how effective would they have been, since they were cut off from their prospective European allies.

What does everyone here think? I think it would be quite interesting. China could take Vladivostok, knock Japan out of Korea, diminish the allied imperial presence in India and Indochina, possibly causing mass rebellions against their European masters. Just some ideas.

In my opinion, that could have been the worst thing that China could have done. I can't see China changing the final outcome of the war, maybe prolong the Pacific Theatre, so to speak. The victorious Entente, esp. Britain, France, and Japan, would carve up China, with maybe a puppet state in what they don't add. The US might try and complain, but I can't see them stopping such an event from happening.
 
Considering what Japan did to China in the 1880s, Russia in the 1900s and China again in the 1930s I think that if China tried to do anything in WW1 they would get flogged by Japan.
 
Considering what Japan did to China in the 1880s, Russia in the 1900s and China again in the 1930s I think that if China tried to do anything in WW1 they would get flogged by Japan.

For one thing, China was in the middle of a civil war. :D
 
In my opinion, that could have been the worst thing that China could have done. I can't see China changing the final outcome of the war, maybe prolong the Pacific Theatre, so to speak. The victorious Entente, esp. Britain, France, and Japan, would carve up China, with maybe a puppet state in what they don't add. The US might try and complain, but I can't see them stopping such an event from happening.

Complain? A piece of the action would likely be a key US demand as a start to repaying the US for its industrial and economic (and in the Pacific naval and troop) support for the war.
 

MrP

Banned
China has no navy. None. The IJN would be second to the RN only if the RN actually redeployed significant units into this theatre from the European theatre. In my TL China has three light cruisers that she ordered IOTL. Those are her most modern warships. If one of the Chinese warlords were to push Japan, he would lose the sea. It's that simple - and painful.
 
Considering what Japan did to China in the 1880s, Russia in the 1900s and China again in the 1930s I think that if China tried to do anything in WW1 they would get flogged by Japan.

I don't think China would get particularly flogged by Japan - but they certainly would be by Britain, France, and Japan after Germany was dealt with.
 
In other words there's now way short of causing extreme butterflies that China can seriously affect the outcome of World War One...
 

MrP

Banned
In other words there's now way short of causing extreme butterflies that China can seriously affect the outcome of World War One...

Well, if somehow China was inaccessible by sea - I shall pass over the implausibility of this war for a moment - Chinese workers wouldn't be available for doing war work in Europe. I have a vague recollection (sorry, no source) that as many as a quarter of a million Chinese labourers were freeing up Franco-British troops for actual fighting in '18.
 

Neroon

Banned
The only way to make this plausible would be in a scenario where Britian (and by extention Japan) stay neutral. Giving China much less enemies to worry about and a sea connection to Germany.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Unlike others, I wouldn't call this development implausible out of hand. In OTL Germany was aware of its weak position in East Asia and knew that in the event of war its possession in Qingdao would be easy pickings for the Entente, to the extent that it considered retroceding it to China before Japan, Britain, France or Russia could seize it. Had that initiative not fallen through, it may have given China enough of a reason to become at least a nominal member of the Alliance.

Also Germany was seen by many in China as a more interesting model of modernization to follow than France or Britain (just as it had been the case in Japan since the 1880s), a tendency that increased in the post-war years even despite Germany's defeat. Jiang Jieshi's decision to hire German advisers to train the Nationalist armies did not come out of thin air; Germans were already around training and providing equipment to the Beiyang Army in the waning years of the Qing dynasty.
 
A neutral Japan and Britain could work for this, they might stand a chance of not totally collapsing just fighting France.

As things stand though China was indeed in the midst of a civil war...
 
One possibility would be if WWI started in the East. Have Russia intent on a rematch after 1905 rather than focusing on SE Europe. Have a second Russo-Japanese war as the flash point, with both Russia & China in the CP.
 
Complain? A piece of the action would likely be a key US demand as a start to repaying the US for its industrial and economic (and in the Pacific naval and troop) support for the war.

That doesn't have to be the case. At this point in time you have Wilson and the Republican arguing about the League of Nations. You also have to remember the the United States was the one who was able to get the European powers to agree to the Open Door Policy in China, preventing it from being split up like Africa. In a timeline where China enters with the Central Powers, you may end up seeing an arguement between pro-LN people so they can voice this at the League and anti-LN people who would pursue other options...
 

Hendryk

Banned
For one thing, China was in the middle of a civil war. :D
In 1914, one may more accurately describe the situation as "impending civil war". Then again, perhaps in a TL in which Yuan dies earlier such as mine or the one MrHola is working on, and in which the central government manages to rein in the military strongmen, China could become a full-fledged rather than a nominal Alliance member. But even in the severely weakened state it was in OTL, it may with German naval support have been a thorn in the side of the Entente.
 
That doesn't have to be the case. At this point in time you have Wilson and the Republican arguing about the League of Nations. You also have to remember the the United States was the one who was able to get the European powers to agree to the Open Door Policy in China, preventing it from being split up like Africa. In a timeline where China enters with the Central Powers, you may end up seeing an arguement between pro-LN people so they can voice this at the League and anti-LN people who would pursue other options...

Do you remember what happened to the Open Door Policy not too much later, though? It ended up failing and mostly shutting. Part of American Pacific Policy was to ensure as many markets in Asia as possible were accessible; this would mean that if China were to be on the losing side (which is pretty much the conclusion we're working with), the US would insure that it had a say in the inevitable sphere of influence carve up.

Not sure what your point about the League of Nations is, though, or even what "this" is. One thing to remember, though, was that Wilson was only progressive for whites of European descent; everyone else was shit as far as he was concerned.
 
China was in the market for Dreadnought battleships and approached the US and I believe the UK about purchasing some. Maybe a Germany wanting to counter-balance the Anglo-Japanese Alliance could develop a Sino-German Alliance and more actively try to reform China's military after the Boxer Rebellion. Maybe even preventing the Revolution of 1912. A good POD could be the 1905 Russo-Japanese War. If China could be brought into the war on the CP side its possible that with a good commander Tsingtao could hold out much like German East Africa was able to.
 
I think the major question here is when China would enter the war.

Considering gains, clearly China should side with the CP: They could get Korea, Outer Manchuria, Taiwan, the French, British and Japanese concessions, Tonking... But they could only get those if they are on the winning side. And it just does not look that way early on in the war. Early entrance is a giant gamble.

If the war goes as IOTL, the situation where China should enter on the CP side just never occurs. Hence the CP must do significantly better. Now with a late CP victory scenario, we'd likely have a minor victory and the CP will be in no position to project force into East Asia. In particular, the Chinese would have to fight on their own - and loose. Hence we'd need a quick CP victory, and it should allow the CP to actually help China - completely ASB IMHO unless Britain stays neutral. But in this case, the CP would rather go for Japan as an ally, I'd say.
 
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