China invades Russia in 1757

Let me see . Checks looks and does not see any reference to Prussian’s on my Post. Did not say the French had the best Doctrine I just said good as in Good enough. The French have a Navy and a possible way of influencing China Prussia on the other hand have what sort of Navy and interaction in China??

The French can't readily talk to them and influence them when the British are beating them up and down in colonial ventures (see 7 years war, Indian and American front) and the Prussians are soloing Austria, Russia, and France.
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
The French can't readily talk to them and influence them when the British are beating them up and down in colonial ventures (see 7 years war, Indian and American front) and the Prussians are soloing Austria, Russia, and France.

LOL Honesty picked the French off the top of my head,

OK insert any European Nation using Western Doctrine that slaughters a Larger Chinese army that later gets swamped by another even Larger Chinese Army that take massive Casualties. Then later has all the.

Just an example
"Look General all our Dead and it was only a Puny 800 European Force they are very Dangerous as enemies, It took 4 times as many Chinese to beat them And then only Just”

Honours that European army by studying there weapons and Tactics 7 years war, Indian and American Revolutionary War the French Revolution to keep them Busy for 40-50 years, While some Chinese General using western style Weapons and Tactics to beat enemies enough for China as whole to notice.

Flintlock musket and western style Ships of the line are a possible Build with Chinese Tech given some time 40-50 years I am thinking is enough.

The Outward looking Chinese is the most important change to realise they do not have all the answers for everything especially militarily.

2-3 Battles against Russians and a cople more along the Chinese Coast even the Chinese are going to have to look at how the west Beats them unless they are outnumberd massively.
 
That's something I forgot. One must remember that the Russians largely avoided the Steppes during their early expansion. They preferred to expand through the taiga.

This is because ways of growing crops on the steppe proper (apart from right on the river banks of the big rivers) as opposed to the forest-steppe didn't come around till the 19th century.

I think people are being rather overoptimistic about Chinas ability to project power outside the Amur basin - the Russians could only field quite small forces and that was with cities, forts and supply dumps already on site.

Crushing the Zhungars required crossing a desert and a mountain range from Chinas nearest base of supply in Gansu - getting to Siberia requires crossing two additional mountain ranges and a bigger desert. Which is also why the Russians didn't really start beating the Chinese back till the 19th century and a much bigger technological edge and Siberian base of operations developed.
 
OK insert any European Nation using Western Doctrine that slaughters a Larger Chinese army that later gets swamped by another even Larger Chinese Army that take massive Casualties. Then later has all the.

Could the Dutch conceivably fill this role? The Dutch are hardly going to attempt to conquer China on their lonesome, but they're a neutral in the european war of the time.

Could they seek to carve a sphere of influence here against a stretched China, perhaps acting in concert with a large, organized, and delayed Russian offensive?
 
I can't really see Qianlong launching any reforms if he wins. He's not known as a reformer, and certainly was both blindly arrogant and complacent in his old age. Chinese Emperors don't lead from the front, and all Qianlong would see and know in the case of victory is that Chinese force of arms prevailed over Western, never mind that it was vastly greater numbers with better logistics against Russian irregulars. Indeed, a major victory may just serve to further block reforms in the 19th Century, rendering China even weaker.

I don't think Qianlong is going to up end his way of life but an unexpectedly costly victory against an enemy which you may have to fight again has a way of changing minds. Once Nerchinsk is captured, protocol demands another treaty be signed. During his grandfather's time, Manchus diplomats made embassies to Moscow to iron out the details. None had been made since the time of Peter the Great. The kind of changes he made to Russia would be the closest thing to Alien Space Bat wank in real life. Technologically, culturally, politically Russia made several hundreds years of progress in a generation. This could not be lost on the Qing ambassador. The fact is they would now be facing a powerful threat from a potentially irredentist Russia. Mind you the Qing empire had always respected land powers and the Russians were the only people they had granted diplomatic recognition as a peer power. (Something they refused to grant the British on account of prejudice against sea powers)

As for military reforms, there is precedent for this. Emperor Kangxi was a big fan of modern military technology and had Jesuits make cannons for him for fighting the Russians in the late 17th century. Qianlong himself is not yet the stubborn old man Lord Macartney met four decades later. He was middle aged and one hungry, war happy ruler. His reign was marked by nearly constant wars and expansions. Useful military technologies would have plenty of opportunities to be tested in action. It's even possible Qianlong may use Russian POWs for his Ten Campaigns, as he did use captured Dzungars in his army.

None of this would mean anything like pulling a Meiji. But I don't think it will be business as usual either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns
 
Thank you for all your comments! I agree with earlier posts that China would most likley prevail against the Russians, but may find itself getting more than its bargained for in terms of increased territory and outside influences, be they military or economic reforms. One things is for sure - that was China's "last true" chance to settle things with the Russians when it comes to power projection. Starting from the 1780s and all the way through late 1960s, China's history will be one of setbacks, internal rebellions, reversals of fortune and foreign domination. Its interesting - and tempting - to assume that had China exerted itself in the 1750s, it may have partially avoided the fate of OTL.

In OTL, China's population and economy continued to expand till the Taiping Rebellion of the 1850s. If China was to secure Siberia and Far East from the Russians and if it were able to partially withstand Western interference in its affairs, the world may well have had to cope with a rather agressive and expansionist new power. That, of course, would also depend on Qianlong's successors. I would love to see a map of this alternate, Siberia-controlling China!
 
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