China competive

I need a plausible divergence point to create a competitive(like jap but more) Qing empire.
Able not only to resist europeans but also able to expand itself in Siberia(like a Tsushima battle but on land) and maybe took chunks of africa and asia.

If the qing should be not able tell me if ming can.

Thanks
 
Emperor Guangzu's Hundred Days' Reform succeeds in 1898. That would go a long way towards modernizing China. A modernized China can beat up anyone in Asia it wants to.
 
The Hundred Days Reform is way too late.

The Qing dynasty is the best bet. It was far more expansionist than the Ming, had a more competent bureaucracy and far more dedicated emperors. Most Ming emperors were lazy playboys while nearly every Qing emperor was serious and frugal.

Really all you need is for the Macartney Embassy to be successful and China "pull a Meiji". The Qing empire was instinctively militaristic, if they had a modern industrial base they would never accept being second best to anybody.
 
Really all you need is for the Macartney Embassy to be successful and China "pull a Meiji". The Qing empire was instinctively militaristic, if they had a modern industrial base they would never accept being second best to anybody.
Unfortunately, that is, IMO, ASB. the gaps between the two world views were simply too great. The only way the Chinese/Qing were prepared to accept the Brits as anything short of 'tributary' nations was if/when there was a British occupying force a) on the Grand Canal blocking food shipments to Beijing or b) at the walls of Beijing.

I really don't think you can do it with any existing Qing emperor.

Now.... If some official from Canton realizes European technological superiority and (mumble, mumble) leads a revolt of the native Chinese against the Manchu and (mumble, mumble) actually succeeds, and then opens up China to foreign tech at least....

This scenario is surely low in likelihood (hence all the mumbling where I can't fill in the dots), but it's not ASB, maybe.
 
Now.... If some official from Canton realizes European technological superiority and (mumble, mumble) leads a revolt of the native Chinese against the Manchu and (mumble, mumble) actually succeeds, and then opens up China to foreign tech at least....

This scenario is surely low in likelihood (hence all the mumbling where I can't fill in the dots), but it's not ASB, maybe.

One word: Koxinga.

Anyway, Qing isolationism and arrogance are overstated, IMO. What did Britain have to offer in 1790 that was immeasurably superior?

Similarly, what is often forgotten is that China did sign a treaty in the 18th century recognizing a European state as its equal. We don't discuss it ecause that nation was Russia.

(I am sure IBC is making a "Haha" right about now).

Why Russia? The Qing were terrified of a threat from the steppes and Central Asia.
 
One word: Koxinga.
A Koxinga analogue would help a lot. He himself died a century+ ago.

Anyway, Qing isolationism and arrogance are overstated, IMO. What did Britain have to offer in 1790 that was immeasurably superior?
militarily, man for man, they were significantly superior already. Navally, incomparably superior. Culturally? Well... not so much:)

The point is that Britain wanted to be recognized as 'equal', not 'superior'.

Similarly, what is often forgotten is that China did sign a treaty in the 18th century recognizing a European state as its equal. We don't discuss it ecause that nation was Russia.

(I am sure IBC is making a "Haha" right about now).

Why Russia? The Qing were terrified of a threat from the steppes and Central Asia.
True. But most Chinese states were oriented to the threat from the steppes, because that's where all the serious threats came from. Anybody coming from the sea was a pirate or a tributary state.


Hmmm... Maybe if Koxinga HAD been a real threat, they might have changed their minds?

Seriously, though. The Qing emperors absolutely insisted on treating Britain (diplomatically) like, say, Vietnam, whom they could treat as a vassal. The first time that they were even prepared to consider the possibility of a British ambassador was when the British besieged Nanjing and blocked the Grand Canal in the First Opium War.
 

Hendryk

Banned
I tend to find the phrase "pulling a Meiji" overused, especially as pertains to China. It's not an either-or choice; in OTL the Self-Strengthening Movement managed to achieve pretty tangible results, but unlike Japan China had to deal with large-scale rebellions, natural disasters and foreign invasions all piling up on top of each other, and that proved too much to deal with for the Qing dynasty.

One example: China's first modern ironclad came out of the Jiangnan shipyards in 1872, when Japan would only start making such ships in 1887.
 
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