China: 1900-1949

I've often heard that this time period in Chinese history is one of the most chaotic ever,but..at the same time I don't hear it discussed often. From the collapse of the Qing Dynasty,to just before the Communists took control of the mainland. Is it just tragic,or does it represent Asia as a whole at the time? When did the Qing Dynasty collapse? I always thought it was 1910..but now I think it's 1911...could anything have changed? I would often think the proposed dynasty in 1915 could have survived..
 
The 1911 revolution ended the Qing dynasty. Yuan Shikai declaring himself a new emperor (on the advice of his American university professor) was a massive mistake because nobody wanted another dynasty. A better leadership at this time would have avoided the break up of the country and warlordism.

This period was chaotic, but it was also extremely chaotic in the 50 years prior.
 
Yuan Shikai declaring himself a new emperor (on the advice of his American university professor) was a massive mistake because nobody wanted another dynasty. A better leadership at this time would have avoided the break up of the country and warlordism.
Yes, Yuan Shikai's 1915 Empire attempt was... not the best decision. Just having him put off declaring himself Emperor until he dies (he did die in 1916, after all, so that's not necessarily a hard thing to pull off) might well put his successors in a better position.
Or, as you say, better leadership from 1911, or better timing with the deaths of leaders they had- China did have quite a bit of bad luck in the early 20th century, from what I've understood.
 

Hendryk

Banned
I'd say Yuan's fatal mistake was to name his cronies from the Beiyang Army as military governors of the various provinces he didn't trust to stay in line. By doing so, he gave them power bases independent of his own largesse, and when it turned out his bid for emperorhood was unpopular, they could ditch him without fearing any consequence. And when military governors cut themselves off from the central government, the result is warlordism, which plagued China for the next decade and a half.

Of course, I feel bound to mention my own attempt to rewrite 20th-century Chinese history: Superpower Empire: China 1912.
 
I've heard that people sort of supported him becomming Emperor,but when he went against it..that was what upset people and led to some years of infighting. The so called "Warlord" years after the fall of the last dynasty and until the 1930's or such when the ROC came in.

Overseas Chinese supported the coup,sending money and fighting in the rebellions from what I heard. What if the Boxer Rebellion had succeded then?
 
On another issue that began at this time,the relationship between the Nationalist Party and the Communist Party. Why is it that most nations "refuse" to notice the ROC? Do they not want to anger the PRC? I actually think that the Nationalist Party could have kept control over the nation,and forced the Communists to Taiwan..or force the break up of the party all together.
 
I've heard that people sort of supported him becomming Emperor,but when he went against it..that was what upset people and led to some years of infighting. The so called "Warlord" years after the fall of the last dynasty and until the 1930's or such when the ROC came in.

Overseas Chinese supported the coup,sending money and fighting in the rebellions from what I heard. What if the Boxer Rebellion had succeded then?

That's a typical Chinese style puppet play, to rally people to show support by paying money, so suddenly becoming a emperor is for the good of all people, not for himself.

ROC came in on 1911, but no effective control over all mainland China until Nationalist defeated almost all warlords around 1930.

Local forces divided China was a common situation since Ching Dynasty, different region even had different official languages, it's very natural when the central government collapsed, those local forces went on their own and fought for their interest by invading others.
 
Why is it that most nations "refuse" to notice the ROC?

IIRC this is due to the One China policy. Both the ROC and PRC agree that there is only one Chinese government. To officially recognise both governments is impossible diplomatically speaking, as both claim to represent the same state. This is why the seat reserved for "China" on the UNSC was initally ROC-held and then after a *lot* of manouvring PRC-held - the seat wasn't the seat of the ROC or PRC, but the seat of China. Similarly, governments around the world recognise and have embassies with "China" which is usually the PRC. Many also have a relationship with the other party, but never an official embassy, because having a country recognise both nations diplomatically goes against the express wishes of both Chinas. This is also why both the PRC and ROC governments see the Taiwanese Independence movement as a threat - it would be a recognition that Taiwan is a seperate entity and not a component of China.
 
On another issue that began at this time,the relationship between the Nationalist Party and the Communist Party.

They initially collaborated during the warlord period when they were both in Guandong marshalling their forces and being bankrolled by the Russians. After Jiang had established his rule in the Northern Expedition, he turned on them as a threat to his rule and fought an unsuccesful campagn to eliminate them, which is the period of the Long March and the various provincial Soviets. His pre-occupiation with Communism led Jiang to ignore the Japanese threat, which only ended when he was kidnapped by Zhang Xueliang and forced to agree to a new (tenuous) co-operation during the Japanese invasion. The communists spent much of that period scheming their seizure of power after the war ended rather than actually fighting Japan. After the Japanese surrender, various nationalist blunders allowed the communists to get the governance of the territories liberated by the Russians and use these to fight the war which drove the nationalists first to the south and then to Taiwan.

Council of Florence-FerraraWhy is it that most nations "refuse" to notice the ROC? Do they not want to anger the PRC?[/quote]

As xt828 says, the present "blue" Guomindang government of Taiwan is just as keen on "one China" as the reds. Even the PRC and the ROC themselves now have an informal working relationship. The dynamic they've arrived at is that they both believe in one Chinese government, but in their mutual dealings they leave which one it is an open question. Taiwain seperatism, advocated by "greens", is unacceptable to China because a "rebellious Chinese faction" is something they can negotiate with, whereas seperatism is illegal in the PRC constitution. When the greens were in power, they ducked the whole question.

An artcile in the Economist the other day suggest that President Ma's bid for leadership of the GMD is part of a scheme by he and President Hu to secure their legacies just before their terms run out at similar times in a few years by meeting in their capacities as party leaders to further cross-strait relations.

I actually think that the Nationalist Party could have kept control over the nation,and forced the Communists to Taiwan..or force the break up of the party all together.

They could have if they hadn't made various blunders, but Taiwan is the least likely place for the commies to end up. They had essentially no presence on the island anyway, leaving aside the fact that under the Japanese surrender terms it was instantly handed over to the ROC.
 
I'm sort of having a dissagrement with someone I know,over what would have happened if the Nationalists won instead of the Communists. Would China be fully Democratic....a vibrant country like South Korea,for example..or would it have ended up like Japan during World War 2. Only concerned about itself and its own interests?

:confused:
 
It might not be fully democratic, but definitely not like Japan in the 1930's. It would almost surely be better off overall than in OTL.
 
I have a rather important question,I'm in the middle of doing a time line..mostly with a friend's help. This is the idea so far,the United States changes its mind and helps China during the Boxer Rebellion..mostly pitty. Even though China suffers massive losses,the Europeans are driven out. As a result all foreign colonies in China are left to American control,Hong Kong being the most valueable.

Is this possible? I want it to be as realistic as possible,can it be done..or is this idea streching the truth a bit? The Europeans of course won't stand for this,but the Great War stops them from taking anything back in China. Britain's power is also starting to wain,so it would naturally fear an attack or loss of its Far Eastern Empire.

Any ideas or suggestions are more than welcome.
 
I'd say Yuan's fatal mistake was to name his cronies from the Beiyang Army as military governors of the various provinces he didn't trust to stay in line. By doing so, he gave them power bases independent of his own largesse, and when it turned out his bid for emperorhood was unpopular, they could ditch him without fearing any consequence. And when military governors cut themselves off from the central government, the result is warlordism, which plagued China for the next decade and a half.

Of course, I feel bound to mention my own attempt to rewrite 20th-century Chinese history: Superpower Empire: China 1912.

I had a TL like that as well although it had a completely different outcome. The PoD is that the Guangxu Emperor is successful in his reforms.
 
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