Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline

[generalurist]

Well darn. With Russia moving deeper into persia and the USA supplying China with tanks, the post-war world is going to be much more tense than OTL, and it will get tense faster.

Now pardon my ignorance, but even with Shermans how the heck did China get the logistics to go all the way to Taskent? The terrain between Tashkent and core China is pretty crap. You could maybe move an infantry/cavalry army like that, but armored forces are a whole 'nother matter

Hee Hee, I see that even with his demotion, Tukachevsky still has plenty of ways to make himself useful! Stalin is going to figure out what to do once he leads the charge into China.

In any case, I expect the Soviets will figure out how to deal with the Sherman soon enough, those things are roughly equal to the T-34. On that note, questions about tanks: The update mentions that the Shermans could supposedly penetrate the Churchills from all sides: in OTL early churchills had about 100mm fromtal armor, which couldn't be penetrated by the Sherman's 75mm gun. Do the TTL Shermans have more firepower? (If so, I bet the brits will be un a hurry to upgrade the Churchill to 152mm frontal armor.)

 

[CCA]

Well darn. With Russia moving deeper into persia and the USA supplying China with tanks, the post-war world is going to be much more tense than OTL, and it will get tense faster.

Now pardon my ignorance, but even with Shermans how the heck did China get the logistics to go all the way to Taskent? The terrain between Tashkent and core China is pretty crap. You could maybe move an infantry/cavalry army like that, but armored forces are a whole 'nother matter

Hee Hee, I see that even with his demotion, Tukachevsky still has plenty of ways to make himself useful! Stalin is going to figure out what to do once he leads the charge into China.

In any case, I expect the Soviets will figure out how to deal with the Sherman soon enough, those things are roughly equal to the T-34. On that note, questions about tanks: The update mentions that the Shermans could supposedly penetrate the Churchills from all sides: in OTL early churchills had about 100mm fromtal armor, which couldn't be penetrated by the Sherman's 75mm gun. Do the TTL Shermans have more firepower? (If so, I bet the brits will be un a hurry to upgrade the Churchill to 152mm frontal armor.)

1. It's only a few tanks - it's mostly mountain troops with a few regiments of tanks - and the Chinese "blood and iron" railways which ran to Persia helps them. There's also some logistical innovations that the Chinese made - such as attaching airships to trains to increase the amount of load the train is able to carry. Also an 'airship railway' which is basically a power pole that airships can hook onto to glide along a line. ( I have no idea how plausible this is but rule of cool.)

2. The Shermans are the same as the vanilla M4s - but the Chinese have been developing innovative ammunition for ages now and use APCBC rounds to get more bang for their buck.

 

[Thunderfire]

In any case, I expect the Soviets will figure out how to deal with the Sherman soon enough, those things are roughly equal to the T-34. On that note, questions about tanks: The update mentions that the Shermans could supposedly penetrate the Churchills from all sides: in OTL early churchills had about 100mm fromtal armor, which couldn't be penetrated by the Sherman's 75mm gun. Do the TTL Shermans have more firepower? (If so, I bet the brits will be un a hurry to upgrade the Churchill to 152mm frontal armor.)

A vanilla sherman needs APCR rounds if it want to penetrate a churchill III frontal armor on a regular basis. A skilled crew might be able to penetrate the churchill III non angled turret armor with regular AP rounds.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

The Chinese have guts, to ask delivery of Stalin for trial.

BTW, they should have demanded that the Soviets pulled out of Europe as well.

I guess that when the NRA pushes the Red Army out, they will discover mass graves (Katyn on steroids), and use it as well for propaganda in the USA.
Right after the Indian Famine propaganda.

After that, the slightest naval incident between the Soviets / Japanese / Entente and the USA may spark a war... Or at the very least, the USA may stop delivering supplies to the Entente and Japan, and expand its deliveries to China. Which might push the IJN to do something very stupid...

 

[CCA]

A vanilla sherman needs APCR rounds if it want to penetrate a churchill III frontal armor on a regular basis. A skilled crew might be able to penetrate the churchill III non angled turret armor with regular AP rounds.

Yep - Chinese crews have APCBC and APCR shells. They don't really have any vanilla AP shells - just mostly APCBC, APCR, a handful of HE and a couple of cannister rounds.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

After that, the slightest naval incident between the Soviets / Japanese / Entente and the USA may spark a war... Or at the very least, the USA may stop delivering supplies to the Entente and Japan, and expand its deliveries to China. Which might push the IJN to do something very stupid...

Oh God... ITTL IJN doing Pearl Harbour...

Indian famine, Soviet mass graves, Japanese war crimes... all while Nazis (of all people) actually restraining themselves from become outright genocidal... Nazi propaganda being better and Japan attack USA.

It will end with US ROFLSTOMP of Japan before collectively pinching their noses and help Germans instead.

Hope US made the atom bomb first so they could literally threaten anyone to play nice and end the war.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Oh God... ITTL IJN doing Pearl Harbour...

Indian famine, Soviet mass graves, Japanese war crimes... all while Nazis (of all people) actually restraining themselves from become outright genocidal... Nazi propaganda being better and Japan attack USA.

It will end with US ROFLSTOMP of Japan before collectively pinching their noses and help Germans instead.

Hope US made the atom bomb first so they could literally threaten anyone to play nice and end the war.

Probably not Pearl Harbor. OTL Japan hadn't suffered major defeats and had a good level of confidence before PH. This Japan has suffered more defeats, draws and pyrrhic victories, so I suspect (part of) the IJN will try to repeat the USS Panay stunt, out of despair...

 

[generalurist]

Yep - Chinese crews have APCBC and APCR shells. They don't really have any vanilla AP shells - just mostly APCBC, APCR, a handful of HE and a couple of cannister rounds.

APCBC won't cut it, you need the APCR, at least from the front. And despite what War Thunder may tell you, APCR shells were always in very limited supply, Tungsten is expensive in this era, probably too expensive to use as the first choice of ammo for shooting at Churchills. Sure they'll have enough to give the Entente plenty of trouble, but not enough to roflstomp them.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Probably not Pearl Harbor. OTL Japan hadn't suffered major defeats and had a good level of confidence before PH. This Japan has suffered more defeats, draws and pyrrhic victories, so I suspect (part of) the IJN will try to repeat the USS Panay stunt, out of despair...

The point stand though, with Axis propaganda capturing and filming very real atrocities done by Soviet Union, Japan, and what could technically blamed on British Empire (with Leni Riefenstahl at the helm nonetheless), and China being the brightest shade of gray in this alternate WW2. I could see if Japan is stupid enough to provoke US, and considering WW2 militarist Japan is very stupid OTL. US collectively pinched their noses and enter the war on Axis side is never out of the question.

Of course US wars would be initially focus on helping ousting Allies from China, liberating India from British rule, liberating Indochina from France, and knock Japan out of the War. Presumably to avoid directly involved in Nazi mudpit.

But this would end up forcing US-Soviet conflict at hand, and in the same time, I could see Germany doing Barbarossa while Britain and French bogged down at Asia. The net result would be USSR Knocked out and destroyed.

US best hope in that scenario is actually threatening to invade Britain before Germany does and forcing white peace at the West. Hope British and French public would force their government to surrender their Asian colonies and cease hostility with Germany. Try maintaining status quo ante bellum in West Europe (let Germany get some minor concessions like Alsace Lorraine there, but force Germany to play nice and withdraw from Netherlands and Belgium).

Purposefully kept Eastern Europe in state of Chaos as long as possible if only to bleed Germany white while whatever left of Russia reforms (in a Pro American regime of course).

I could see after Chiang and Hitler dies, the Axis would drift and US should secure alliance with China.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Agreed except one thing : I'm not sure Soviet Union would necessarily be destroyed. Chinese and US troops might end up conquering Central Asia (logistics will be a bitch there though), Eastern Siberia (as far as Baikal) and Kamtchatka, but will be hard pressed to enter Central Siberia.

On the other side, Germans and their allies are pressed to stop the Soviet invasion and will have badly suffered from the two front war and Soviet occupation in the East, so they won't be in the greatest shape to carry Barbarosssa.

They might, if the US Army directly joins them in Eastern Europe.

Even then, assuming US are on board for Barbarossa, Stalin will demonize German "invaders", and since they're Nazis and this time they were actually invaded first, they will likely carry revenge on Russian civilians (and take food, clothes...from them because logistics). This, in turn, might push Russians to resist the Axis.

Also, if the US finds itself at war with Japan and extends it to Soviet Union, US population will likely be enthusiastic for saving Europe and China from Russian hordes, but much less less enthusiastic for pushing into Russia proper (which would cost millions of men and billions of dollars, and be very difficult and fraught with defeats on the way), especially not as they are invading the Home Islands too and they don't like the Germans that much.

So, Stalin will likely get his peace treaty with the US (once the Red Army has been pushed back enough), Germany and friends will have to swallow the pill, and the US will likely focus on Japan.

Basically, Stalin may lose but be saved by logistics and politics...

 

[generalurist]

Hey, I've been reading some older updates and supposedly Germany signed a treaty of friendship with Poland to keep the USSR off their backs. How are Hitler's supporters reacting now that he seems to be in no particular rush to 'liberate' the 'oppressed Germans' in Danzig?

 

[Kingfish Chris]

I wonder how other Fascist Parties are doing in this time? We know about the British Union of Fascists, but how about the All-Russian Fascist Party which was situated in Manchuria?

I assume the Russian Fascists fled to China with the Soviets taking Manchuria, perhaps Russian Fascists aiding the Chinese acting as spies for the Chinese going undercover disguising themselves as Soviet Troops with stolen uniforms relaying information on the Soviets to the Chinese.

Whereas the French Fascist Parties - Croix-de-Feu (Lead by Francois de la Rocque), Mouvement Franciste (Lead by Marcel Bucard) and Parti Populaire Francaise (Lead by Jazques Doriot) are agigitating to get France out of the War just like Mosley's British Union of Fascists. Though the Mouvement Franciste had received funding from the Italians so I imagine the Francists are likely to commit Terrorist Actions against the French War Effort on behalf of the Axis. Though there was the La Cagoule/Comite secret d'action révolutionnaire, a Secretive Far-Right Nationalist Terrorist Organization which received funding from French Industrialists whom were opposed to the French Parliamentarian Government and had committed Terrorist acts such as False Flags to discredited Communists and Leftists in France. I could see La Cagoule seeing the War as an opportunity to strike as France is preocuppied with the Germans, as well false flags against the Communists would perhaps cause France to turn on the Soviet Union.

In America, I can also see William Dudley Pelley and the Silver Legion of America urging to enter the conflict though in favour of joining the Germans in Europe than in China.

Also what's the status on the Iron Guard in Romania, does Codreanu take over and establish a Legionary Romania or does Antonescu still rule Romania under a Military Junta, and the Arrow Cross Party In Hungary does Horthy ban them?

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Hey, I've been reading some older updates and supposedly Germany signed a treaty of friendship with Poland to keep the USSR off their backs. How are Hitler's supporters reacting now that he seems to be in no particular rush to 'liberate' the 'oppressed Germans' in Danzig?

Realpolitik first, and the fact that being nice to Poland will pay more this time.

Anyway, this is literally nice example of clusterfuck of entangling alliances.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Even the most hardcore Nazis will prioritize stopping the Red Tide over any conflict with the Poles... And if Soviet Union is beaten, Germany can always get back lost German territories (Sudetes, Dantzig...) in peace negociations, using her strong man and savior position...

 

[Drizzt]

Not to mention, that there's plenty of Soviet real estate to compensate the Poles for revising their western border. Kind of a reverse of OTL.

 

[ASUKIRIK]

Not to mention, that there's plenty of Soviet real estate to compensate the Poles for revising their western border. Kind of a reverse of OTL.

Germany being winner ITTL might force Poland to forego having northren coastline of their own then (being taken by Germany themselves), in exchange of giving what is western Ukraine and Crimea for their shiny new Southren coastline.

Finland will grew far larger against Russian border, and may end up deep enough to border Moscow, while alsp gobbling their share of Baltics.

Majority of Baltic States would get reverse fate too, they would be forcibly absorbed into Germany, like it or not.

Looking at how Germany grew bigger by annecations on the NorthEast, Sweden being Axis by necessity but doesn't want the other Scandinavian countries to be absorbed into Germany or even American sphere would force them to use historical claim to annex Norway (which is half invaded by Entete and half invaded by Germany), some very significant parts of Denmark that could be pried from German Hands with historic claims, Iceland and Greenland too. If only for them to basically let Norway and Denmark continue being de facto independent democracies that put themselves under Swedish Crown. To preserve the face of Norway and Denmark royalties, Swedish royals might elevate themselves to Emperor level while letting Norway and Denmark to keep being Kings. The "resurgent" Swedish Empire would be rather an effort to save other Scandinavians from outright German annexation at first, and rather decentralized in politics, but drive into 21st century and we may see Sweden basically united and integrated all Scandinavians (except Finland). United "Scandinavian" Language will emerge due to economic incentives.

Low countries are basically goners at this point unless America secured their independence, which wouldn't be high on their list.

Greece would end up staying carved by Italy, Bulgaria, and Turkey, in fact Turkey would reclaim most of Greece due to Americans deeming them more trustworthy and historic Ottoman claim, which would be awkward down the line.

 

[CCA]

1944 - January - June - the European Front


Western Europe:

The Western European front collapsed into stagnation. French troops - filled with Communist (Trotskyite) and Fascist agitation outright refused to follow orders to attack in large-scale offensives. Now that France and Belgium had been liberated - they had no intention to die in what they saw as a futile war. British troops were increasingly diverted to the continuously disintegrating Indian front, hanging onto a tenuous front in the Southern. Nonetheless, Franco-British deployments (3 million) were substantial enough and enough raids were being conducted across the border to force Germany to divert a substantial portion of her manpower (2 million) to the front.

The Polish Armia Krajowa fought a ferocious guerilla resistance against the Soviets - transcending lines of class, party, age and gender.
Polish Front:
As punishment for speaking up for Marshal Tukhachevsky, Zhukov’s Polish Army Front inherited the most beat up and obsolete formations of the former Hungarian Army Front (around 500k men.) Combined with his current Red Army troops (2.3 million) and the newly created Polish Socialist Republic’s army (200k) - he had around 3 million men. Opposing him were Marshal Guderian’s Army Group North (3 million) and Marshal Rundstedt’s Army Group Center (1.5 million) and the Polish Army (500k) that was mostly in Army Group North defending the remnants of the Polish Republic stationed in Gdinya although there were were some smaller forces (100k) of militia and regular army troops that had been raised in the newly liberated Polish territory around Krakow.


Adding to Zhukov’s headache was the massive guerilla resistance - Wehrwolves in Soviet-occupied East Prussia and the Armia Krajowa in Soviet-occupied Poland who interfered with his supply lines - blowing up railways, setting mines and generally causing havoc behind the scenes. Germany had strategic air superiority over the whole front and so continued to air drop supplies to the resistance with the Panzerfausts causing particular trouble.


Nonetheless, Zhukov had to try and advance the front and retake the polish territory to the South - crush the remaining Gdinya front and then advance to Berlin.


This was a pipe dream. Zhukov would have his hands full fighting off the two army groups. Despite Zhukov’s valiant efforts - the Axis troops had pushed the front east - advancing to Elbing in the North, Lodz in the center and Rzesow to the South. But Zhukov had extracted a high toll of blood from the Fascists with nearly 1 million casualties to only 500k of his own.


The Romanian Front:

Marshal Budyonny received the bulk of the Hungarian Army Front (1.5 million troops) which he added to his existing 4.5 million troops. His 6 million man army was given the objective of cutting off Germany’s oil supply by eliminating Romanian resistance and taking the Ploetsi oil fields. This would be no easy task - opposing him was Field Marshall Kesselring - a commander who had proven his worth in defensive battles across the low countries, Poland and now - Romania. Although Army Group South only had 3 million troops - Kesselring identified the Soviet likely area of attack. He knew that they’d try and take Ploetsi and that holding it was key to keeping Germany’s spluttering war economy limping along. Without Romanian oil - German tanks, planes and economy would come to a grinding halt. Thus - Ploetsi had to be held - at all costs.


So from January-June Budyonny would hurl himself against Romania. The Axis defensive position was mostly anchored around the Carpathia-Ploetsi line which was impenetrable, but all of Romania south of this line was overrun. Bulgaria found itself in an awkward position of being a member of the Axis but not at war with the Soviet Union and having to resist pressure on both sides. Her decision would shape the future of the Balkans - and the subsequent Cold War forever.

 

[rjd1997]

History books written by TTL Americans about the war will no doubt be fascinating.

 

[generalurist]

What exactly is the source of all the agitation in the French ranks? Is there an OTL basis for that?

In any case, this war really is a clusterfuck isn't it?

EDIT: Why are the communists opposing an advance into Germany? Hitler is basically the mortal enemy of communists everywhere and he's at war with the USSR, you'd thing the communists would eager to kick his face in. Yes I know Trotsky specifically has plenty of beef with Stalin, but I find it unbelievable that he has enough supporters to hold up the entire army, and besides they'd probably think a USSR led by Stalin is still preferable to Hitler taking it over.

 

[CCA]

What exactly is the source of all the agitation in the French ranks? Is there an OTL basis for that?

In any case, this war really is a clusterfuck isn't it?

EDIT: Why are the communists opposing an advance into Germany? Hitler is basically the mortal enemy of communists everywhere and he's at war with the USSR, you'd thing the communists would eager to kick his face in. Yes I know Trotsky specifically has plenty of beef with Stalin, but I find it unbelievable that he has enough supporters to hold up the entire army, and besides they'd probably think a USSR led by Stalin is still preferable to Hitler taking it over.

1. The French have been at war since 1938 when Japan dowed China. The average French person has seen their cities bombed, some close friends killed - possibly a relative and not seen much gain out of it. While during the German invasion - much of the french did rally around the flag - The war has become super unpopular at this point with many feeling that they accidentally got dragged into a colonial war which accidentally blew up. The two groups that have consistently opposed the war from the onset have been the fascists and the trotskyist left. The Trotskyites don't deny that Nazi Germany is evil, but view the war against China as a colonial war. They do support a revolutionary war against fascism and international capitalism, but do not view this war - as it is being run by bourgeioise powers for colonial gain, as one. As the Trotskyite left have been opposed to the war from the onset and the Stalinist and moderate left have (reluctantly) supported it, as have much of the moderate right. Thus - we have a real horseshoe theory thing going in French and British politics with the Trots and fascists making gains because of how unpopular the war has become.