Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
- Thread starter CCA
- Start date
Hendryk
Banned
So Sun is dead, having outlived his usefulness by a few years. His fate in your TL is an interesting middle course between OTL and a TL by Faeelin in which he lived another decade and a half and steered China towards national unification.
China gets a decade to build itself up, I hope it will make the most of it.
China gets a decade to build itself up, I hope it will make the most of it.
Sun is finally dead. Faeelin's TL is quite excellent.
China will have a decade, but that decade won't necessarily be 10 straight years of uninterupted peace - it would be punctuated by many 'border incidents' and things like that.
What do you think of the Wang-Chiang-Soong deal? Is it plausible for their characters to collaborate like that (at least in the presence of a more powerful and threatening external force.)
Hendryk
Banned
They're all opportunistic enough to stick together, certainly. Now Jiang is ambitious and power-hungry, and Wang is... well, judging from how he ended up in OTL, he's a fool. Song is reasonably level-headed but at such a time in Chinese history, raw military strength trumps money, so I wouldn't expect him to prevail against either of the others if the triumvirate fell apart.
Though the question was addressed to Hendryk, I do have a link to the various arsenals, in Chinese...
History of Chinese arsenals:
http://www.chinesefirearms.com/110108/history/history_g.htm
History of the Guangdong Arsenal:
http://www.chinesefirearms.com/110108/history/kwandong_g.htm
The arsenal was established in the 1870s and was one of the bigger ones in the 1920s. They produced Madsen light machine guns in 1909 and Mauser Model 1907 rifles in 1913. FN M1930 Mauser short rifle in 1932, and Vz.26 light machine gun in 1935.
Is it possible for China and Japan to both be members of the Axis? In 1941 China can go north, Japan can go south.
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Wall Street crash is coming within the year, yes? If Japan still causes troubles, Britain and France will be have too many problems to be overly bothersome.
The Vulture - Thanks Vulture, cheers to you and your excellent TL - I would like to do a crossover piece one day - with your permission of courseThe theatre of Mu could be an interesting battleground for World War II...
Nice... Mu in the Second Wold War will make for riveting reading...
Why do I get the feeling that people will start rising from their graves to sue for copyright infringement?
*POTENTIAL SPOILER* Trotsky beats the crap out of the invading Japs, dosen't he?? *END POTENTIAL SPOILER*
1930 - The Red Protector
Paul MacQ - Thanks heaps. It does seem like a paradox but stable government *is* possible for China. Well relatively stable anyway, but when things go unstable shit will really hit the fan. You have to remember that the KMT and many in China take the "political power grows out of the barrel of the gun" very seriously. This is a state where postal workers and the census bureau carry submachine guns and the Postal Service has tanks. You can only imagine what a breakdown in civil society will produce....
Hendryk - Thanks for all your help so far Hendryk!
Nivek - Hehe thanks, it's currently holidays in New Zealand and I'm trying to update this TL every weekday if possible.
- Your reaction to Hindenburg's death is pretty much the same reaction of everyone who knew what was going on. But for the average peasant the death of Sun is like the death of the Great Leader.
- You'll get your Japanese blood soon, but not yet. The civilians are still in control of Japan and they still can keep a grip on the Kwangtung Army
- Aha! But Trotsky isn't actually the Red Protector! I fooled lots of people though so I don't blame you
- Yep this TL does have lots of views - I think it's because it contains two of the most popular alternate history words "China" and "Axis" in the title.
tallwingedgoat: - Thanks for those links - will be very useful for me in the future. It certainly *is* possible for both China and Japan to be both in the Axis but to do that you need to reverse Japan's foreign policy since the 1850's which was the domination of China.
Wyragen-TXRG4P: - Thanks - there's a small bit about the Wall Street Crash on this update.
OKH_1946 -
1. I sure hope so, I've got a few vague ideas which I'll float around to The Vulture very soon.
2. hehe - Zombie Clauswitz tearing the shit out of Chiang? Maybe in a "Zombie Axis China TL"
3. Nope I can't believe I got you too!
1930 - The Red Protector
Although some historians view 1929 as the beginning of the "Nanjing Decade" it was more of a preparation year for what would be known as the "Year of Lightning." One study done by Burkhart et all estimates that the sheer number of initiatives, reforms and programmes launched in 1930 exceeds the total number of legislation passed during the 'Nanjing Decade.' It would be folly then to attempt to even catalogue the sheer volume - we should instead concentrate on the important programmes.
Mao Zedong - The energetic and fresh new General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party.
The main driver of these reforms - unsurprisingly enough was Wang Jingwei. Alhough many of these initiatives were proposed by the KMT left, Chiang as president - had the power to block, ammend or otherwise water down these legislation. In fact, he often went much further, strengtening and often radicalizing legislation. For example when Wang's land reform scheme was proposed it only included 'suggestions' for rent reductions and had a voluntary 'credit cooperation' scheme where local villagers could participate in. Landlords often stayed as the key figures in the village. The reason for the mildness of these schemes is disputes, some say that Wang was positioning himself as a 'moderate' and trying to win the support of the broader KMT. Some said that Wang thought that there was no point in even proposing radical reform since Chiang was bound to shoot it then. Wang and the Executive Yuan (which governed the country in the absense of a Legislative Yuan and cabinet structures) were then taken very much aback when Chiang demanded more 'radical reforms.' Chiang wanted the creation of 'village councils' which would be the center of political and economic life, introducing democracy at a localized level and allowing villages to have credit. Chiang also proposed linking the compulsory village cooperatives to a "National Agriculture Fund" in a "National Bank" which would give the KMT regime much needed credit. The programme could be kick started by a one time "Landlord registration fee" - which would effectively confiscate half of all landlords assets and place it into the hands of the village cooperatives. Rent reductions would then be 'suggested' with a further threat of 'registration' if the rents were not reduced at an appropriate level. These examples are only a few of the reforms proposed but they showed how radicalized - even 'bolshevist' Chiang's ideas were.
It was believed that many of these ideas had not - in fact come from Chiang but the new and very young General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party Mao Zedong. Chiang and Mao had come from very similar backgrounds - both had been born into poor peasant families and had risen their way to top positions. Although Chiang was not a Marxist and had no time for dogmatic Marxism, Mao had impressed Chiang with his intellectual independence from Moscow and his insistence that China had to develop it's own 'independent' method of communist thought - free from Moscow. Mao emphasized the importance of the rural peasantry which comprised over 80% (if not more) of China's total population and argued that the peasants were the key to any successful revolution. For any revolution to succeed they had to be mobilized. Chiang did not agree with Mao's conclusions - the creation of a proletarian state, but he did grasp the concept that the political mobilization of peasants was key to any successful regime. So an unlikely alliance was developed. Chiang would not only take and implement Mao's policies he would also ensure that the Chinese Communist Party was not assimilated into the KMT-left headed by Wang. This move, more than any other would ensure Chiang's dominance of the 'broad coalition' - by preventing anyone else from amassing similar coalitions - he would maintain his monopoly on power.
The Red Napoleon aka Leon Trotsky/Lev Bronstein
Chiang's cooperation with leftists did not end with native born communists. His cooperation and ultimately friendship with a man history would ultimately know as the "Red Napoleon" would have profouned consequences - not only for the development of the National Revolutionary Army but for the future of the world. However when Trotsky finally arrived in China after an entire long year travelling across bandit and warlord infested lands where half his party had been wiped out he was desperately sick (having contracted smallpox, yellow fever, dengue and malaria at various points during his trip) and it seemed unlikely that he would live. Trotsky would spend all of 1929 recovering before he was well enough to even speak to Chiang.
When he was finally well enough to finally speak to the President of China - Trotsky firmly impressed Chiang with his knowledge of China and his precise grasp of Chinese politics. Trotsky could also relate to Chiang as an equal - something that the Germans could never do (given that Chiang was the subbordinate of Ludendorf and he was still treated as such by the old man.) Trotsky's ideas were radically different from that of the Germans, instead of creating a small, professional army which was highly mobile, apolitical and versed in 'modern offensive warfare' Trotsky wanted to create a massive, highly politically indoctrinated 'popular army.' Trotsky viewed the Army as an "instrument of power" - which Chiang also agreed. Trotsky favoured the creation of an "Army-in-being" which would use it's advantage of interior communication lines to pose a threat to an enemy everywhere. The "Army-in-being" by it's very existence would force an enemy to overextend their forces, allowing the much larger army to strike the weakest point or to 'attack along the line, overcoming the overstretched enemy.' A 'Popular Army' would also make use of China's most important asset: people. Chiang was reportedly so pleased with Trotsky and his ideas that he gave Trotsky a gift of a ancient Chiense sword on his birthday - a sure sign of telling Chiang's trust (in total, only 4 people would ever received this gift from Chiang - Adolf Hitler, Wang Jingwei, T.V Soong and Leon Trotsky.) Chiang put Trotsky in charge of 'reorganization of the National Revolutionary Army as you see fit' on one caveat - he would leave the Assault Divisions alone.
Mao Du - one of the leading intellectuals of the "New Literature Movement." His name meant "contradiction" and in a sense he represented the internatal contradictions, not only of himself but of the wider Chinese Society.
Chiang's patronage of left-wing figures did not end there. Chiang and his wife Soong Meiling would become great patrons of China's emerging "New Literature" intellectual movement which was connected to the "May Fourth" movement. The "New Literatue Movement" were a group of intellectuals, writers and artists, who were leading the "Chinese Renaissance." Originally based in Shanghai - they were hounded out of the city by Du Yuesheng's increasing paranoia and many relocated to Nanking where they were patronized by Chiang and other leading figures. The leading figure of the "New Literature Movement" was Mao Dun the editor of Xiaoshuo Xinchao (Fiction New Waves) - the weekly newsletter of the movement. Nanking would eventually become the thriving intellectual capital of China becoming the birthplace of "Chinese Futurism."
Chiang's patronage of the above left-wing figures and many many more won Chiang the epithet "The Red Protector." Overseas, this was seen as evidence that China was "Bolshevist" leading to increased calls for an "intervention." However, the western powers were in no mood for an intervention. Although a sharp plunge in the New York Stock Market in 1929 had led to concerns of a possible recession, Chinese silver was used by many Western Powers to purchase shares leading to a return in market value for many of these stocks. However - the consumers who had mostly lost all their savings in the October 1929 crash did not have access to these silver. Consumption fell as a result. 1930 would see the beginning of what would be termed the "Great Depression" - but the effects were beginning to be felt. Ramsay MacDonald's Labour government - elected under a wafer-thin majority in 1929 was in no mood for what he dismissed as 'foreign adventures.' Chiang stood defiantly in 1930 as the "Red Protector" of not only the left but of China itself.
Next Update:
1931 - The Eastern Expedition
Thanks to everyone for their feedback and comments.
Further feedback and comments always welcomed/encouraged.
Hendryk - Thanks for all your help so far Hendryk!
Nivek - Hehe thanks, it's currently holidays in New Zealand and I'm trying to update this TL every weekday if possible.
- Your reaction to Hindenburg's death is pretty much the same reaction of everyone who knew what was going on. But for the average peasant the death of Sun is like the death of the Great Leader.
- You'll get your Japanese blood soon, but not yet. The civilians are still in control of Japan and they still can keep a grip on the Kwangtung Army
- Aha! But Trotsky isn't actually the Red Protector! I fooled lots of people though so I don't blame you
- Yep this TL does have lots of views - I think it's because it contains two of the most popular alternate history words "China" and "Axis" in the title.
tallwingedgoat: - Thanks for those links - will be very useful for me in the future. It certainly *is* possible for both China and Japan to be both in the Axis but to do that you need to reverse Japan's foreign policy since the 1850's which was the domination of China.
Wyragen-TXRG4P: - Thanks - there's a small bit about the Wall Street Crash on this update.
OKH_1946 -
1. I sure hope so, I've got a few vague ideas which I'll float around to The Vulture very soon.
2. hehe - Zombie Clauswitz tearing the shit out of Chiang? Maybe in a "Zombie Axis China TL"
3. Nope
I can't believe I got you too!1930 - The Red Protector
Although some historians view 1929 as the beginning of the "Nanjing Decade" it was more of a preparation year for what would be known as the "Year of Lightning." One study done by Burkhart et all estimates that the sheer number of initiatives, reforms and programmes launched in 1930 exceeds the total number of legislation passed during the 'Nanjing Decade.' It would be folly then to attempt to even catalogue the sheer volume - we should instead concentrate on the important programmes.
Mao Zedong - The energetic and fresh new General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party.
The main driver of these reforms - unsurprisingly enough was Wang Jingwei. Alhough many of these initiatives were proposed by the KMT left, Chiang as president - had the power to block, ammend or otherwise water down these legislation. In fact, he often went much further, strengtening and often radicalizing legislation. For example when Wang's land reform scheme was proposed it only included 'suggestions' for rent reductions and had a voluntary 'credit cooperation' scheme where local villagers could participate in. Landlords often stayed as the key figures in the village. The reason for the mildness of these schemes is disputes, some say that Wang was positioning himself as a 'moderate' and trying to win the support of the broader KMT. Some said that Wang thought that there was no point in even proposing radical reform since Chiang was bound to shoot it then. Wang and the Executive Yuan (which governed the country in the absense of a Legislative Yuan and cabinet structures) were then taken very much aback when Chiang demanded more 'radical reforms.' Chiang wanted the creation of 'village councils' which would be the center of political and economic life, introducing democracy at a localized level and allowing villages to have credit. Chiang also proposed linking the compulsory village cooperatives to a "National Agriculture Fund" in a "National Bank" which would give the KMT regime much needed credit. The programme could be kick started by a one time "Landlord registration fee" - which would effectively confiscate half of all landlords assets and place it into the hands of the village cooperatives. Rent reductions would then be 'suggested' with a further threat of 'registration' if the rents were not reduced at an appropriate level. These examples are only a few of the reforms proposed but they showed how radicalized - even 'bolshevist' Chiang's ideas were.
It was believed that many of these ideas had not - in fact come from Chiang but the new and very young General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party Mao Zedong. Chiang and Mao had come from very similar backgrounds - both had been born into poor peasant families and had risen their way to top positions. Although Chiang was not a Marxist and had no time for dogmatic Marxism, Mao had impressed Chiang with his intellectual independence from Moscow and his insistence that China had to develop it's own 'independent' method of communist thought - free from Moscow. Mao emphasized the importance of the rural peasantry which comprised over 80% (if not more) of China's total population and argued that the peasants were the key to any successful revolution. For any revolution to succeed they had to be mobilized. Chiang did not agree with Mao's conclusions - the creation of a proletarian state, but he did grasp the concept that the political mobilization of peasants was key to any successful regime. So an unlikely alliance was developed. Chiang would not only take and implement Mao's policies he would also ensure that the Chinese Communist Party was not assimilated into the KMT-left headed by Wang. This move, more than any other would ensure Chiang's dominance of the 'broad coalition' - by preventing anyone else from amassing similar coalitions - he would maintain his monopoly on power.
The Red Napoleon aka Leon Trotsky/Lev Bronstein
Chiang's cooperation with leftists did not end with native born communists. His cooperation and ultimately friendship with a man history would ultimately know as the "Red Napoleon" would have profouned consequences - not only for the development of the National Revolutionary Army but for the future of the world. However when Trotsky finally arrived in China after an entire long year travelling across bandit and warlord infested lands where half his party had been wiped out he was desperately sick (having contracted smallpox, yellow fever, dengue and malaria at various points during his trip) and it seemed unlikely that he would live. Trotsky would spend all of 1929 recovering before he was well enough to even speak to Chiang.
When he was finally well enough to finally speak to the President of China - Trotsky firmly impressed Chiang with his knowledge of China and his precise grasp of Chinese politics. Trotsky could also relate to Chiang as an equal - something that the Germans could never do (given that Chiang was the subbordinate of Ludendorf and he was still treated as such by the old man.) Trotsky's ideas were radically different from that of the Germans, instead of creating a small, professional army which was highly mobile, apolitical and versed in 'modern offensive warfare' Trotsky wanted to create a massive, highly politically indoctrinated 'popular army.' Trotsky viewed the Army as an "instrument of power" - which Chiang also agreed. Trotsky favoured the creation of an "Army-in-being" which would use it's advantage of interior communication lines to pose a threat to an enemy everywhere. The "Army-in-being" by it's very existence would force an enemy to overextend their forces, allowing the much larger army to strike the weakest point or to 'attack along the line, overcoming the overstretched enemy.' A 'Popular Army' would also make use of China's most important asset: people. Chiang was reportedly so pleased with Trotsky and his ideas that he gave Trotsky a gift of a ancient Chiense sword on his birthday - a sure sign of telling Chiang's trust (in total, only 4 people would ever received this gift from Chiang - Adolf Hitler, Wang Jingwei, T.V Soong and Leon Trotsky.) Chiang put Trotsky in charge of 'reorganization of the National Revolutionary Army as you see fit' on one caveat - he would leave the Assault Divisions alone.
Mao Du - one of the leading intellectuals of the "New Literature Movement." His name meant "contradiction" and in a sense he represented the internatal contradictions, not only of himself but of the wider Chinese Society.
Chiang's patronage of left-wing figures did not end there. Chiang and his wife Soong Meiling would become great patrons of China's emerging "New Literature" intellectual movement which was connected to the "May Fourth" movement. The "New Literatue Movement" were a group of intellectuals, writers and artists, who were leading the "Chinese Renaissance." Originally based in Shanghai - they were hounded out of the city by Du Yuesheng's increasing paranoia and many relocated to Nanking where they were patronized by Chiang and other leading figures. The leading figure of the "New Literature Movement" was Mao Dun the editor of Xiaoshuo Xinchao (Fiction New Waves) - the weekly newsletter of the movement. Nanking would eventually become the thriving intellectual capital of China becoming the birthplace of "Chinese Futurism."
Chiang's patronage of the above left-wing figures and many many more won Chiang the epithet "The Red Protector." Overseas, this was seen as evidence that China was "Bolshevist" leading to increased calls for an "intervention." However, the western powers were in no mood for an intervention. Although a sharp plunge in the New York Stock Market in 1929 had led to concerns of a possible recession, Chinese silver was used by many Western Powers to purchase shares leading to a return in market value for many of these stocks. However - the consumers who had mostly lost all their savings in the October 1929 crash did not have access to these silver. Consumption fell as a result. 1930 would see the beginning of what would be termed the "Great Depression" - but the effects were beginning to be felt. Ramsay MacDonald's Labour government - elected under a wafer-thin majority in 1929 was in no mood for what he dismissed as 'foreign adventures.' Chiang stood defiantly in 1930 as the "Red Protector" of not only the left but of China itself.
Next Update:
1931 - The Eastern Expedition
Thanks to everyone for their feedback and comments.
Further feedback and comments always welcomed/encouraged.
The Vulture
Banned
Looks like Chiang is getting farther and farther left. That might be hard to reconcile with Hitler's extreme anti-Communism.
But still, great show!
But still, great show!
Paul MacQ - Thanks heaps. It does seem like a paradox but stable government *is* possible for China. Well relatively stable anyway, but when things go unstable shit will really hit the fan. You have to remember that the KMT and many in China take the "political power grows out of the barrel of the gun" very seriously. This is a state where postal workers and the census bureau carry submachine guns and the Postal Service has tanks. You can only imagine what a breakdown in civil society will produce....
Hendryk - Thanks for all your help so far Hendryk!
Nivek - Hehe thanks, it's currently holidays in New Zealand and I'm trying to update this TL every weekday if possible.
- Your reaction to Hindenburg's death is pretty much the same reaction of everyone who knew what was going on. But for the average peasant the death of Sun is like the death of the Great Leader.
- You'll get your Japanese blood soon, but not yet. The civilians are still in control of Japan and they still can keep a grip on the Kwangtung Army
- Aha! But Trotsky isn't actually the Red Protector! I fooled lots of people though so I don't blame you
- Yep this TL does have lots of views - I think it's because it contains two of the most popular alternate history words "China" and "Axis" in the title.
tallwingedgoat: - Thanks for those links - will be very useful for me in the future. It certainly *is* possible for both China and Japan to be both in the Axis but to do that you need to reverse Japan's foreign policy since the 1850's which was the domination of China.
Wyragen-TXRG4P: - Thanks - there's a small bit about the Wall Street Crash on this update.
OKH_1946 -
1. I sure hope so, I've got a few vague ideas which I'll float around to The Vulture very soon.
2. hehe - Zombie Clauswitz tearing the shit out of Chiang? Maybe in a "Zombie Axis China TL"
3. Nope
1930 - The Red Protector
Although some historians view 1929 as the beginning of the "Nanjing Decade" it was more of a preparation year for what would be known as the "Year of Lightning." One study done by Burkhart et all estimates that the sheer number of initiatives, reforms and programmes launched in 1930 exceeds the total number of legislation passed during the 'Nanjing Decade.' It would be folly then to attempt to even catalogue the sheer volume - we should instead concentrate on the important programmes.
Mao Zedong - The energetic and fresh new General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party.
The main driver of these reforms - unsurprisingly enough was Wang Jingwei. Alhough many of these initiatives were proposed by the KMT left, Chiang as president - had the power to block, ammend or otherwise water down these legislation. In fact, he often went much further, strengtening and often radicalizing legislation. For example when Wang's land reform scheme was proposed it only included 'suggestions' for rent reductions and had a voluntary 'credit cooperation' scheme where local villagers could participate in. Landlords often stayed as the key figures in the village. The reason for the mildness of these schemes is disputes, some say that Wang was positioning himself as a 'moderate' and trying to win the support of the broader KMT. Some said that Wang thought that there was no point in even proposing radical reform since Chiang was bound to shoot it then. Wang and the Executive Yuan (which governed the country in the absense of a Legislative Yuan and cabinet structures) were then taken very much aback when Chiang demanded more 'radical reforms.' Chiang wanted the creation of 'village councils' which would be the center of political and economic life, introducing democracy at a localized level and allowing villages to have credit. Chiang also proposed linking the compulsory village cooperatives to a "National Agriculture Fund" in a "National Bank" which would give the KMT regime much needed credit. The programme could be kick started by a one time "Landlord registration fee" - which would effectively confiscate half of all landlords assets and place it into the hands of the village cooperatives. Rent reductions would then be 'suggested' with a further threat of 'registration' if the rents were not reduced at an appropriate level. These examples are only a few of the reforms proposed but they showed how radicalized - even 'bolshevist' Chiang's ideas were.
It was believed that many of these ideas had not - in fact come from Chiang but the new and very young General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party Mao Zedong. Chiang and Mao had come from very similar backgrounds - both had been born into poor peasant families and had risen their way to top positions. Although Chiang was not a Marxist and had no time for dogmatic Marxism, Mao had impressed Chiang with his intellectual independence from Moscow and his insistence that China had to develop it's own 'independent' method of communist thought - free from Moscow. Mao emphasized the importance of the rural peasantry which comprised over 80% (if not more) of China's total population and argued that the peasants were the key to any successful revolution. For any revolution to succeed they had to be mobilized. Chiang did not agree with Mao's conclusions - the creation of a proletarian state, but he did grasp the concept that the political mobilization of peasants was key to any successful regime. So an unlikely alliance was developed. Chiang would not only take and implement Mao's policies he would also ensure that the Chinese Communist Party was not assimilated into the KMT-left headed by Wang. This move, more than any other would ensure Chiang's dominance of the 'broad coalition' - by preventing anyone else from amassing similar coalitions - he would maintain his monopoly on power.
The Red Napoleon aka Leon Trotsky/Lev Bronstein
When he was finally well enough to finally speak to the President of China - Trotsky firmly impressed Chiang with his knowledge of China and his precise grasp of Chinese politics. Trotsky could also relate to Chiang as an equal - something that the Germans could never do (given that Chiang was the subbordinate of Ludendorf and he was still treated as such by the old man.) Trotsky's ideas were radically different from that of the Germans, instead of creating a small, professional army which was highly mobile, apolitical and versed in 'modern offensive warfare' Trotsky wanted to create a massive, highly politically indoctrinated 'popular army.' Trotsky viewed the Army as an "instrument of power" - which Chiang also agreed. Trotsky favoured the creation of an "Army-in-being" which would use it's advantage of interior communication lines to pose a threat to an enemy everywhere. The "Army-in-being" by it's very existence would force an enemy to overextend their forces, allowing the much larger army to strike the weakest point or to 'attack along the line, overcoming the overstretched enemy.' A 'Popular Army' would also make use of China's most important asset: people. Chiang was reportedly so pleased with Trotsky and his ideas that he gave Trotsky a gift of a ancient Chiense sword on his birthday - a sure sign of telling Chiang's trust (in total, only 4 people would ever received this gift from Chiang - Adolf Hitler, Wang Jingwei, T.V Soong and Leon Trotsky.) Chiang put Trotsky in charge of 'reorganization of the National Revolutionary Army as you see fit' on one caveat - he would leave the Assault Divisions alone.
Mao Du - one of the leading intellectuals of the "New Literature Movement." His name meant "contradiction" and in a sense he represented the internatal contradictions, not only of himself but of the wider Chinese Society.
Chiang's patronage of left-wing figures did not end there. Chiang and his wife Soong Meiling would become great patrons of China's emerging "New Literature" intellectual movement which was connected to the "May Fourth" movement. The "New Literatue Movement" were a group of intellectuals, writers and artists, who were leading the "Chinese Renaissance." Originally based in Shanghai - they were hounded out of the city by Du Yuesheng's increasing paranoia and many relocated to Nanking where they were patronized by Chiang and other leading figures. The leading figure of the "New Literature Movement" was Mao Dun the editor of Xiaoshuo Xinchao (Fiction New Waves) - the weekly newsletter of the movement. Nanking would eventually become the thriving intellectual capital of China becoming the birthplace of "Chinese Futurism."
Chiang's patronage of the above left-wing figures and many many more won Chiang the epithet "The Red Protector." Overseas, this was seen as evidence that China was "Bolshevist" leading to increased calls for an "intervention." However, the western powers were in no mood for an intervention. Although a sharp plunge in the New York Stock Market in 1929 had led to concerns of a possible recession, Chinese silver was used by many Western Powers to purchase shares leading to a return in market value for many of these stocks. However - the consumers who had mostly lost all their savings in the October 1929 crash did not have access to these silver. Consumption fell as a result. 1930 would see the beginning of what would be termed the "Great Depression" - but the effects were beginning to be felt. Ramsay MacDonald's Labour government - elected under a wafer-thin majority in 1929 was in no mood for what he dismissed as 'foreign adventures.' Chiang stood defiantly in 1930 as the "Red Protector" of not only the left but of China itself.
Next Update:
1931 - The Eastern Expedition
Thanks to everyone for their feedback and comments.
Further feedback and comments always welcomed/encouraged.
For All the Possible Candidates for the title of 'Red Protector'(Trosky, Wang even Mao) the result.... give a WTF face(In OTL Chiang was IMHO a little more an Apolitical Paternalist Generalissimo, in fact a little rigth-wing by modern standarn), but is Understable, the Left like 'bolshevik'(pre Stalin Terror and later Brehzvev Terror) was a more social progresive, anti imperialist and pro union, the social needs of China.
Now with the eastern expedition, who i think will be against the eastern clique plus tibet(because those feudalist monks will recibe their 'unifity' touch) will show us how will be the new theory of Trosky(and for fanservice, seeing trosky in battle again) and maybe some more developmt for the early 30 China, and make the preparation for the Intervention in certain Civil War(Again Barbarosa for me is Unavoidable Unless Stalin doesn't press for more territory who already have(aka berassabia)
Again the lack of japanesse blood(even with my Japanophilia, everybody know the horror the made in the early 20th century) but like you said, the civil goverment(ironically by better control in manchuko thanks to the unequal treaty of Beining) having a better grips with the militarist in the 'current'(the early 30th) situation but the depresion.... i can wait for the japanesse strikes, but again that are unbutterflied away unless like you said a Meiji POD.
Vulture you're right, but remember, for that dates(Before the night of the long knives) the Nazi Party have a pretty important support for some 'moderate' leftwing areas and even a Left-wing branch in the Party(again before the Long Knives 'purge'), and the shock with the soviets start only with the SCW and later the soviets expasionism in Europe(more that the 'accord' in the M-R pact), but again, if Chiang give his support to Hitler in the Munich Crisis and later Declare war durring the 'Danzing or war' ultimatum, having a different ideology doesn't will matter a lot
My foresight is difficult(because the lack of information about the asia mess) and we know the major event in europe post depression are the Nazis Winning the power in Germany and later Rheinland militarization and SCW but that event are in very years ahead, (3 and 6 years respectlly)
well is good is we can have very periodically update but will better if is an timetable base(like every 3 days or twice or once a week) but having a very good quality like the actual, is with A shift in priorities have become one of my basis every time i'm visit AH.com, keep there, you are made an awesome TL
Att
Nivek Von beldo
P.S well Mao have a little 'support' of Chiang, but what will happend to Deng Xiaoping aka the father of the Modern, Industial Great Power china
Last edited:
Hendryk
Banned
While it's true that both Jiang and Mao had similar social backgrounds, neither came from what you'd call "poor peasant families". Being a poor peasant in late Qing China meant being very poor indeed; but by the standards of the time the Jiangs and the Maos were, if not well-off, at least above poverty levels. Mao's father had enough money to spare that he occasionally lent some to his neighbors, and both families could afford to give their sons an education.
This is going to be scary. China is going to have a sizable assault force trained in the Blitzkrieg method, followed by a Russian style march forward and bury the enemy with your dead monstrosity.
In most other countries that wouldn't work very well, but China has the manpower. Japan and any other country that gets in the way is going to be crying.
In most other countries that wouldn't work very well, but China has the manpower. Japan and any other country that gets in the way is going to be crying.
Japan was of two minds when it came to China. Some wanted to dominate it, others wanted an alliance. The East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere was cynical ploy, but the Pan-Asian principle behind it goes back to the days when it was a serious idea. Sun Yatsen for example was a big fan of Pan-Asianism and of Japan. Before the 1911 Revolution his revolutionary activities were bankrolled by his Japanese friends. At one point he wanted Japan to annex Manchuria so the Qing dynasty could be liquidated. When he died the Japanese government expressed condolences by planting the royal cherry blossom at his grave site.
Ultimately China's perpetual weakness made it an unattractive ally and easy victim for Japan. A stronger China amicable to Japanese interests could change things. However if Japan annexes Manchuria in 1931 as per TTL, notions of alliance would be deader than a door knob. Since we're getting close to that date I thought I should bring that up.
Speaking of Mao. It would be interesting to see a TL where he studied abroad for a spell. He turned down opportunity to go to France in the 1920's. Mao was the only senior Chinese Communist who never studied abroad and not coincidentally the most radical.
another great update, keep up the good work.
I find it interesting the way things are developing, although you established a personal closeness with Germany and Hitler from Chiang's standpoint, everything looks like China is going to be much more cozy with Russia when the time comes. Considering the anti-communist rhetoric that permeated Nazi ideology, I just don't see how Chaing is going to get that close to hitler during WWII. Or is stalin going to piss off Chiang by assassinating or attempting to assassinate Trotsky? Is it possible that Trotsky will survive afterall? As I recall the real assassination was a real cluster fuck, perhaps more paranoid Chinese bodygards will do a better job?
I find it interesting the way things are developing, although you established a personal closeness with Germany and Hitler from Chiang's standpoint, everything looks like China is going to be much more cozy with Russia when the time comes. Considering the anti-communist rhetoric that permeated Nazi ideology, I just don't see how Chaing is going to get that close to hitler during WWII. Or is stalin going to piss off Chiang by assassinating or attempting to assassinate Trotsky? Is it possible that Trotsky will survive afterall? As I recall the real assassination was a real cluster fuck, perhaps more paranoid Chinese bodygards will do a better job?
1931: The Eastern Expedition Redux or the Invasion that wasn't
1931: The Eastern Expedition Redux or the Invasion that wasn't
The 13th Dalai Lama
The Chinese reassertion of sovereignty in Tibet, Sinkiang and the various autonomous provinces in the east would serve as a model by which a peacefulZhōngguó tǒngyī (or reunification) would proceed in years to come. Chinese diplomatic finesse, Soviet support and the threat a brutal military intervention by the rapidly expanding National Revolutionary Army (which had swelled to a paper strength of 10 million soldiers (!) by mid-1931) would prove sufficient to cow the 13th Dalai Lama, the autonomist governor of Sinkiang Jin Shuren and the various bandits and warlords that populated the region. Chiang's preferred method of negotiation was simple - he invited the Dalai Lama and Jin Shuren to Nanking for a "Conference."
Seemingly endless lines of Chinese soldiers paraded past the two men.
When the two men arrived they were subjected to a confusing barrage of psychological messages. They were attended to see the "military might of new China," they saw a parade of 'never-ending soldiers' march past their balcony. The specially arranged one million soldiers tramped past the balcony in an orderly procession and the two men stood in the sweltering Nanking heat for nearly 6 hours. They were then taken to see the preparations of a "Special Assault Group" undertaking special mountain training.
The Fiat 3000 was used to great effect when dealing with foreign dignatories.
The two men were then taken to a tank part where they saw what seemed to be endless rows of Fiat 3000's. (In fact many of these tanks were cardboard models and they were not suitable in any way for the heavilly rugged terrain) Their day ended with a demonstration of 'precise techniques of modern night bombing' where a specially prepared squadron completely leveled a concrete bunker while the two men and Chiang watched through binoculars. At the end of the night Chiang posed the question: "Do you really think you can stand against the might of China?" and offered them relatively lenient terms. The two men could continue their status as relatively independent 'autonomous provinces' - in return they would submit to Nanking and fly the Chinese flag. The two provinces would be autonomous in domestic policy and would be left alone as long as they obeyed the instructions of Nanking. Completely cowed, tired, demoralized, dehydrated and hungry (the two men had been kept without food or water and not permitted toilet breaks) they relented. Jin Shuren's plane would 'accidentally crash' on his way back to Sinkiang and a more pliant governor - Sheng Shicai - would be installed. The Dalai Lama was allowed to return to Lhasa safely with a heavy 'advisory team' who would pull the strings. The Dalai Lama might pretend otherwise - but he had effectively become a mere puppet and had even less power than a typical provincial governor. Another section on the long winding road to reunification had been crossed and it had been accomplished cheaply.
A beaming Chiang pleased with himself.
Chiang was the major winner in these negotiations. He had gained land without having expended any political, economic or military resources - his steely statesmanship and foreign enemies distracted by economic and political crisis was unable to respond. China's main threat - Japan had seen a failed military coup early in the year and the civilian administration was lurching from crisis to crisis.Trotsky was also a winner, his theory of an "Army-in-being" had scored China it's military coup and his genius at raising and outfitting a 10 million strong army had won him plaudits both at home and in the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union had also gained significantly, with Chinese gratitude at Soviet support for recovering Sinkiang seemingly securing China as a member of the "Soviet Sphere" China seemed to be prospering while the west was languishing. The Chinese had also had learned a new response in the diplomatic game - previously her entire diplomatic game was limited to a simple response: concessions, concessions and concessions. Now that China finally had the strength to resist would it? Had the wheels of history finally turned?
Thanks to everyone for their feedback and comments (I'll respond to them when I get home - I'm actually updating this during a lull in a LAN party.)
Feedback and comments always appreciated
The 13th Dalai Lama
The Chinese reassertion of sovereignty in Tibet, Sinkiang and the various autonomous provinces in the east would serve as a model by which a peacefulZhōngguó tǒngyī (or reunification) would proceed in years to come. Chinese diplomatic finesse, Soviet support and the threat a brutal military intervention by the rapidly expanding National Revolutionary Army (which had swelled to a paper strength of 10 million soldiers (!) by mid-1931) would prove sufficient to cow the 13th Dalai Lama, the autonomist governor of Sinkiang Jin Shuren and the various bandits and warlords that populated the region. Chiang's preferred method of negotiation was simple - he invited the Dalai Lama and Jin Shuren to Nanking for a "Conference."
Seemingly endless lines of Chinese soldiers paraded past the two men.
When the two men arrived they were subjected to a confusing barrage of psychological messages. They were attended to see the "military might of new China," they saw a parade of 'never-ending soldiers' march past their balcony. The specially arranged one million soldiers tramped past the balcony in an orderly procession and the two men stood in the sweltering Nanking heat for nearly 6 hours. They were then taken to see the preparations of a "Special Assault Group" undertaking special mountain training.
The Fiat 3000 was used to great effect when dealing with foreign dignatories.
The two men were then taken to a tank part where they saw what seemed to be endless rows of Fiat 3000's. (In fact many of these tanks were cardboard models and they were not suitable in any way for the heavilly rugged terrain) Their day ended with a demonstration of 'precise techniques of modern night bombing' where a specially prepared squadron completely leveled a concrete bunker while the two men and Chiang watched through binoculars. At the end of the night Chiang posed the question: "Do you really think you can stand against the might of China?" and offered them relatively lenient terms. The two men could continue their status as relatively independent 'autonomous provinces' - in return they would submit to Nanking and fly the Chinese flag. The two provinces would be autonomous in domestic policy and would be left alone as long as they obeyed the instructions of Nanking. Completely cowed, tired, demoralized, dehydrated and hungry (the two men had been kept without food or water and not permitted toilet breaks) they relented. Jin Shuren's plane would 'accidentally crash' on his way back to Sinkiang and a more pliant governor - Sheng Shicai - would be installed. The Dalai Lama was allowed to return to Lhasa safely with a heavy 'advisory team' who would pull the strings. The Dalai Lama might pretend otherwise - but he had effectively become a mere puppet and had even less power than a typical provincial governor. Another section on the long winding road to reunification had been crossed and it had been accomplished cheaply.
A beaming Chiang pleased with himself.
Chiang was the major winner in these negotiations. He had gained land without having expended any political, economic or military resources - his steely statesmanship and foreign enemies distracted by economic and political crisis was unable to respond. China's main threat - Japan had seen a failed military coup early in the year and the civilian administration was lurching from crisis to crisis.Trotsky was also a winner, his theory of an "Army-in-being" had scored China it's military coup and his genius at raising and outfitting a 10 million strong army had won him plaudits both at home and in the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union had also gained significantly, with Chinese gratitude at Soviet support for recovering Sinkiang seemingly securing China as a member of the "Soviet Sphere" China seemed to be prospering while the west was languishing. The Chinese had also had learned a new response in the diplomatic game - previously her entire diplomatic game was limited to a simple response: concessions, concessions and concessions. Now that China finally had the strength to resist would it? Had the wheels of history finally turned?
Thanks to everyone for their feedback and comments (I'll respond to them when I get home - I'm actually updating this during a lull in a LAN party.)
Feedback and comments always appreciated
Last edited:
The Vulture
Banned
This timeline grows ever more fascinating as the butterflies become more and more apparent. CCA, once again, you're doing a fantastic job with this.
Also, something to consider further on down the line is that Buddhism probably will not become as fashionable as it is these days, but either be seen as a violent religion due to the association with martial arts, and the fact that Tibet was considered a relatively unpleasant place to be; there's more than one instance of people being tortured to death for questioning the divinity of the Dalai Lama.
Also, something to consider further on down the line is that Buddhism probably will not become as fashionable as it is these days, but either be seen as a violent religion due to the association with martial arts, and the fact that Tibet was considered a relatively unpleasant place to be; there's more than one instance of people being tortured to death for questioning the divinity of the Dalai Lama.