Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline

[CCA]

Onkel Willie - Thanks! I wouldn't think there would be too many butterflies, Hitler still launches his Beer Hall Putsch and Germany still remains pretty much the same. However due to the increased number and prominence of Sino-German cooperation there is beginning to emerge a 'geostrategical' school of thought emerging in military and other conservative circles about the need to build up China to 'encircle' the Soviet Union. This is going to have massive ramifications further down the line.

Paul MacQ - Thanks for following Paul, yep I did a bit of research before finding that gem. I was originally planning to have Admiral von Graf Spee but he kinda died so I had to use Canaris.

I don't think Canaris will be needing to advice the Chinese on intelligence matters. If there was one thing that the KMT OTL got right it was on intelligence under Dai Li the "Himmler of the East."

Nivek - Thanks Nivek, the two men are indeed very close and the two have kept up regular correspondence. Chiang got Feng Ru to visit Hitler to give an engraved Chinese sword as a gift.

Sun isn't dead yet. Which is good because when he does things will get a bit interesting...

That's thinking ahead on the plight of the Jews, let's just say that things go a bit differently ITTL...

Domoviye - Thanks, yeah it's a bit stretched to make a movie about Chiang but eh, I can always retcon it for v2 or handwave it to say that the movie director/actor served with Chiang.

Jay - I'll try, but my mapmaker is in the middle of exams at the moment. He (I presume its a he) has promised to make maps as soon as he is finished. V2 of this TL will definitely have maps.

Hendryk - Thanks Hendryk, it is a pity indeed. I'm using the same system as Jonathan Fenby is, using mostly Pinyin but using Wade-Giles when they are better recognized with the name. I can standardize it in V2 if you like.

OKH_1946 - See PaulMcQ's response. Although in theory they *could* start building battleships it would be too expensive in terms of money, steel and the opportunity costs. ITTL most divisions have only 4 light field guns for artillery, having artillery for land forces is a greater priority than building a navy which at this point is only being utilized for tarrif collection and flag flying exercises.

And now without further ado I present:

Chinese Military Modernization in the Early 20's - The Evolution of the National Revolutionary Army

The evolution of the National Revolutionary Army from a motley collection of bandits, students and drifters without much in the way of equipment, discipline and cohesion to a well oiled-machine capable of conquering China is a vast topic with a vast number of academic literature.

This humble author has opted to give a broad overview rather than cover every single minutia of the National Revolutionary Army. It is probably not essential that the casual reader know the evolution of NRA contraceptives. For a complete look at the National Revolutionary Army covering every single possible area I refer readers to the "Chinese National Revolutionary Army 1918-2008" published by Osprey.

The primary architect of this transformation was Chiang Kai-Shek, a revolutionary who studied in Germany just before the outbreak of the Great War and ended the war as a decorated Hauptmann and a German war hero. Chiang's service in the trenches of the Western Front seems to have made an indelible mark on Chiang and this is reflected in the military doctrine that the National Revolutionary followed. Chiang's experience in the trench also led him to pursue several reforms that improved the previously horrendous field conditions of the average Chinese soldier.

To improve the nation, improve the army, to improve the arm, improve the food.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

Chiang's first step upon assuming command of the National Revolutionary Army in 1919 was to improve the living conditions of his men. A system of rudimentary field kitchens and rudimentary field hospitals was established. Although primitive, this step was an important one in ensuring that the fighting quality of National Revolutionary Army troops remained a step above many warlord troops. The fact that Chiang was showing so much concern for his troops also endeared the "Ningbo Napoleon" to many of the common troops. Chiang's insistence that "officers must eat the same food as their men" was also welcomed. In some units the officers decided to supplement the rations of their own men by paying for them.

Give a man a gun and he fight for a day. Train a man how to use a gun and he can fight for a lifetime.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

The second step was to institute regular training exercises. The foundation of the Whampoa Academy provided the KMT regime with professional army core that could train other units. The National Revolutionary Army was reorganized with a 'regular' division (normally consisting of 10,000 men) being constructed around an 'elite' battalion (normally consisting of 1000 men) which could train the 'regular' units up. The National Revolutionary Army would also have elite divisions called "Assault Troopers" that would consist of elite soldiers fighting with the best equipment and superior training.

One must not never a knife to a gun fight.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

The third, and final step to improve the quality of the equipment by ensuring a level of equipment standardization. By 1925 every single soldier in the National Revolutionary Army had a standard set of equipment. If he was in the regular divisions he would have a Type 1 Guangzhou rifle, a pack of rations for 3 days, a canteen, 2 sets of uniform and a Guangzhou gas mask. The standardization of equipment also made the organization of a coherent supply system possible - another way in which the National Revolutionary Army was superior to warlord armies.

One must not regard the Army as a mere military force to be hurled like a blunt rock... the Army is an extension of the Popular Will and must be treated with care and respect.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

The overall effects of these reforms was twofold but led to the same conclusion: they raised the combat effectiveness of the National Revolutionary Army. Morale was high, unlike Warlord troops the National Revolutionary Army did not have to resort to brutal press gangs to field an army. There was an organized system of conscription, the regular wages and prestige that the Army enjoyed also meant that conscription was treated as an honour and a duty rather than an onerous burden. This was reinforced by Kuomintang officials who threw 'heroic service parties' for villagers who had been conscripted where the families received a small monetary gift "From the Generalissimo." With their basic livelihood taken care of (albeit in a spartan way) the soldiers of the National Revolutionary Army had the intellectual and emotional energy to invest themselves in the "Cause for National Liberation." Morale was sky-high with the fed, well-equiped, well-paid (for the standards of China) troops of the National Revolutionary Army in constrast with the shabby troops of many of the warlord armies who were frequently only a step above banditry.

The National Revolutionary Army at the onset of the Second Northern Expedition

Not all National Revolutionary Army divisions were created equal. Chiang's German military training combined with German advice meant that the National Revolutionary Army was divided into two tiers of quality.

An "Assault Trooper" with german made equipment poses for a photo.

The 'elite' troops of the National Revolutionary Army were the "Assault Divisions." These elite divisions were highly trained, highly motivated, well-led and well-equiped. They were equiped with the German made "Broomhandle" Mauser C96 a German machine-pistol fitted with a stock. With a cartridge of 20 and capable of firing in semi-automatic and automatic it gave the Assault Divisions a superior rate of fire. Each squad was also equipped with the excellent Czech made ZB vz 26 light machine gun. They also wore German-made Stalhelm helmets, German-made uniforms and German-made gas masks and had German advisors present. Their training and equipment wrote Ludendorff "are equal to the best of our men." Indeed, they were deliberately modelled after the 100,000 strong Reichswehr of the Weimar Republic. However their numbers were substantially few only consisting of 10 divisions with 6,000 men each (a total of 60,000 men) (see organization table for the complete detail.

Organization of a typical National Revolutionary Army "Assault Division 26" (Combat strenght 6,000 with rear area soldiers 7,000)


Division headquarters troops (1,000 Soldiers):

• 1 Artillery battalion:
  • 3 Artillery companies (12 x 75 light artillery guns in batteries of 4)
  • 1 Anti-aircraft gun company (4 x 20mm anti-aircraft guns)
• 1 Military Engineer Battalion<LI sizset="3" sizcache="0">1 Signal battalion
  • 2 wired communications companies
  • 1 Wireless correspondence platoon
• 1 Transport Battalion
• 1 Special duty Battalion (Special Operations Battalion)
• 1 medical team (usually is a Division hospital)
• 1 Command Team
• 1 Field kitchen company

2 Infantry Brigades (2 x 3,000 soldiers

• 2 Infantry Regiments (2 x 1,500 troops):
• 1 Regimental Headquarters Company (100 men) consisting of
• 6 x 83mm medium mortar company
• 1 communications platoon
• 2 heavy weapon squad with 2 MG 08 Heavy Machine gun
• 1 Command team
• 3 Infantry Battalions (3 x 500 soldiers):
• 1 Command Team (2 x 83mm medium mortar, 2 x MG 08 Heavy Machine Gun)
• 5 infantry companies of (5 x 100 soldiers):
• 1 command team (25 soldiers) (3 x 45 mm light mortar, 1 x MG08 Heavy Machine Gun
• 3 Infantry Platoons (3 x 25 soldiers)
• 1 command team (5 soldiers) (1 x 45 mm light mortar)
• 2 Squads (2 x 10 soldiers) (1 x CZ vs 26 light machine gune, 9 x C96 broomhandle machine pistol.)

Overall, the firepower contained within a single Assault Division was immense. Assault Division troops were also given significant mobility in the form of bicycles and motorcycles. Entry into the "Assault Divisions" was strict, one needed to pass a strict physical course to enter one and one needed to have passed with "Excellent Distinction" (90/100) in the Whampoa Military Academy to serve. Pay was double that of the Regular Divisions, the food however, remained the same.

"Regular" troops conduct early morning drills.

The second tier of the National Revolutionary army were so-called 'regular' troops. These troops were the bread and butter of the National Revolutionary Army consisting of 600,000 troops organized into 60 divisions when the Northern Expedition was launched. They were equiped with Chinese made equipment with the Guangzhou Type 1 Rifle , the Guangzhou Type 1 Light Machine Gun, the Guangzhou gas mask and the Guangzhou Type 1 Light mortar. Their uniform was slightly less flashier than the Assault Troops with a cloth cap instead of a Stalhelm helmet. The Regular Army was bigger than an Assault Division but had less firepower.

Organization of a typical National Revolutionary Army "Regular Division 26" (Combat strenght 10,000 with rear area soldiers 11,000)


Division Headquarters and other rear area troops (1,000 soldiers)

• 1 Artillery company (6 x 75mm field gun)
• 1 Military Engineer Battalion<LI sizset="3" sizcache="0">1 Signal battalion
  • 2 wired communications companies
  • 1 Wireless correspondence platoon
• 1 Transport Battalion
• 1 Special duty Battalion (Special Operations Battalion)
• 1 medical team (usually is a Division hospital)
• 1 Command Team
• 1 field kitchen company
• 1 Military Police Company

3 Infantry Brigades (3 x 3,000 soldiers

• 3 Infantry Regiments (3 x 1,000 troops):
• 1 Regimental Headquarters Company (100 men) consisting of
• 3 x 83mm medium mortar company
• 1 communications platoon
• 2 heavy weapon squad with 2 Guangzhou Heavy Machine Guns
• 1 Command team
• 2 Infantry Battalions (2 x 500 soldiers):
• 1 Command Team (2 x 83mm medium mortar, 1 Guangzhou Heavy Machine Gun)
• 5 infantry companies of (5 x 100 soldiers):
• 1 command team (25 soldiers) (3 x 45 mm light mortar,)
• 3 Infantry Platoons (3 x 25 soldiers)
• 1 command team (5 soldiers) (1 x Guangzhou Type 1 Light Machine Gun)
• 2 Squads (2 x 10 soldiers) (10 x Guangzhou Type 1 Rifle)

1 Assault Regiment (1 x 1000 soldiers)

• 1 Regimental headquarters company
• 2 x 75mm light field gun
• 4 x 83 mm light mortar company
• 4 x 37 mm infantry gun
• 2 Assault Batallions (2 x 500 soldiers)
• 1 Command Team ( 4 x 45mm light mortar,)
• 2 Assault Companies (2 x 250 soldiers)
• 1 Heavy Assault Platoon (50 soldiers):
• 5 Heavy Assault Squads (5 x 10 soldiers) (3 x CZ vs 26 light machine gun, 7 C96 machine pistols)
• 4 Assault Platoons (4 x 50 soldiers)
• 5 Assault Squads (5 x 10 soldiers) (1 x CZ vz 26 light machine gun, 9 x C96 Machine Pistols)

Overall, although the Regular Divisions had less firepower and less mobility (only the Assault Regiment were equipped with bicycles) they were still a formidable and well-equiped fighting force although they were short of artillery pieces.

I hope everyone enjoys the update! Feedback and comments always welcome

Next Update: The National Revolutionary Army in Operation - Field Tactics and Strategy.

 

[ComradeTovarich]

Loved the update. Keep up the good work, CCA! Just a few queries though...

For a complete look at the National Revolutionary Army covering every single possible area I refer readers to the "Chinese National Revolutionary Army 1918-2008" published by Osprey.

Is this a series or an entire book by itself? Covering the NRA in minute detail would have required loads of information and last I recall, Osprey does not publish thick books...

To improve the nation, improve the army, to improve the arm, improve the food.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek


Give a man a gun and he fight for a day. Train a man how to use a gun and he can fight for a lifetime.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

One must not never a knife to a gun fight.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

One must not regard the Army as a mere military force to be hurled like a blunt rock... the Army is an extension of the Popular Will and must be treated with care and respect.
- On War, Chiang Kai-Shek

Very witty. I presume that now we have two books titled 'On War'. One by Carl von Clausewitz and the other by Chiang.

Not all National Revolutionary Army divisions were created equal. Chiang's German military training combined with German advice meant that the National Revolutionary Army was divided into two tiers of quality.

An "Assault Trooper" with german made equipment poses for a photo.

The 'elite' troops of the National Revolutionary Army were the "Assault Divisions." These elite divisions were highly trained, highly motivated, well-led and well-equiped. They were equiped with the German made "Broomhandle" Mauser C96 a German machine-pistol fitted with a stock. With a cartridge of 20 and capable of firing in semi-automatic and automatic it gave the Assault Divisions a superior rate of fire. Each squad was also equipped with the excellent Czech made ZB vz 26 light machine gun. They also wore German-made Stalhelm helmets, German-made uniforms and German-made gas masks and had German advisors present. Their training and equipment wrote Ludendorff "are equal to the best of our men." Indeed, they were deliberately modelled after the 100,000 strong Reichswehr of the Weimar Republic. However their numbers were substantially few only consisting of 10 divisions with 6,000 men each (a total of 60,000 men) (see organization table for the complete detail.

Organization of a typical National Revolutionary Army "Assault Division 26" (Combat strenght 6,000 with rear area soldiers 7,000)


Division headquarters troops (1,000 Soldiers):

• 1 Artillery battalion:
  • 3 Artillery companies (12 x 75 light artillery guns in batteries of 4)
  • 1 Anti-aircraft gun company (4 x 20mm anti-aircraft guns)
• 1 Military Engineer Battalion<LI sizset="3" sizcache="0">1 Signal battalion
  • 2 wired communications companies
  • 1 Wireless correspondence platoon
• 1 Transport Battalion
• 1 Special duty Battalion (Special Operations Battalion)
• 1 medical team (usually is a Division hospital)
• 1 Command Team
• 1 Field kitchen company

2 Infantry Brigades (2 x 3,000 soldiers

• 2 Infantry Regiments (2 x 1,500 troops):
• 1 Regimental Headquarters Company (100 men) consisting of
• 6 x 83mm medium mortar company
• 1 communications platoon
• 2 heavy weapon squad with 2 MG 08 Heavy Machine gun
• 1 Command team
• 3 Infantry Battalions (3 x 500 soldiers):
• 1 Command Team (2 x 83mm medium mortar, 2 x MG 08 Heavy Machine Gun)
• 5 infantry companies of (5 x 100 soldiers):
• 1 command team (25 soldiers) (3 x 45 mm light mortar, 1 x MG08 Heavy Machine Gun
• 3 Infantry Platoons (3 x 25 soldiers)
• 1 command team (5 soldiers) (1 x 45 mm light mortar)
• 2 Squads (2 x 10 soldiers) (1 x CZ vs 26 light machine gune, 9 x C96 broomhandle machine pistol.)

Overall, the firepower contained within a single Assault Division was immense. Assault Division troops were also given significant mobility in the form of bicycles and motorcycles. Entry into the "Assault Divisions" was strict, one needed to pass a strict physical course to enter one and one needed to have passed with "Excellent Distinction" (90/100) in the Whampoa Military Academy to serve. Pay was double that of the Regular Divisions, the food however, remained the same.

Is this comparable to a GrossDeutschland Division minus the tanks?

Speaking of which, where are the Chinese tanks??!!

 

[CCA]

Loved the update. Keep up the good work, CCA! Just a few queries though...



Is this a series or an entire book by itself? Covering the NRA in minute detail would have required loads of information and last I recall, Osprey does not publish thick books...



Very witty. I presume that now we have two books titled 'On War'. One by Carl von Clausewitz and the other by Chiang.



Is this comparable to a GrossDeutschland Division minus the tanks?

Speaking of which, where are the Chinese tanks??!!

1. It is a ATL after all Osprey, besides publishing those thin books with pretty pictures also publishes serious thick academy military books.

2. Hehe yup! We'll be seeing more excerpts from Chiang's book as this TL goes on.

3. Not really, the "elite" "Assault Divisions" are pretty much just a regular division of any modern country in terms of equipment. In terms of training, morale, equipment and overall combat effectiveness they are equivalent - if not better than any country's elite troops.

4. Hmm, I might talk about tanks in the next update. I don't see Chinese tanks becoming that important to be honest.

Thanks for reading!

 

[ComradeTovarich]

2. Hehe yup! We'll be seeing more excerpts from Chiang's book as this TL goes on.

Wanted to post this earlier, but I kinda forgot...

Let's hope that von Clausewitz does not rise from his grave and sue Chiang for copyright infringement...

 

[CCA]

Wanted to post this earlier, but I kinda forgot...

Let's hope that von Clausewitz does not rise from his grave and sue Chiang for copyright infringement...

Obviously in a non-axis China TL I can totally see the Nazi's going insane and claiming proof that the "inferior asiastics do not have any new ideas."

In this TL however, it is possible the Himmler and the other Nazi occultists view this as proof that Chiang is some reincarnation of Clausewitz...

 

[Paul MacQ]

Obviously in a non-axis China TL I can totally see the Nazi's going insane and claiming proof that the "inferior asiastics do not have any new ideas."

In this TL however, it is possible the Himmler and the other Nazi occultists view this as proof that Chiang is some reincarnation of Clausewitz...

Letter distributed from the Office if Foreign affairs the Chinese of Foreign affairs

“ Regarding the breach of Copy write or at least the statement that full use of the works of Clausewitz was used in the Manuals and documentation for the structure. The Government will not confirm nor deny, as Our Great Military leader Chaing is well versed in the all aspects of Military arts. It is noted that copy write works of the great military thinker Clausewitz is now over, As such his works are now recognised by international Law as in the public domain.

Further statements regarding this, The National Revolutionary Army Printing office would like to point out the lack of reference to the great works of Sun Tzu in his great treatise “ The Art of War “ in the Western world.

And the prospect and statement that Chaing is the Third reincarnation of Sun Tzu and Clausewitz by some reactionary writers. is outside the authority of this office to reply

Regards Chang Ping. Head administrator for Nationalist Chinese Government International relations office.

 

[trekchu]

Well, once the Japanese become Frisky and once the Soviets realize how German friendly China is, I think some tanks will find their way to the NRA.

Also subscribed.

 

[CCA]

Thanks to everyone for all their feedback and comments

The National Revolutionary Army in Operation - Tactics and Strategy

The National Revolutionary Army was heavilly influenced by German Army operational doctrines and strategies - perhaps unsurpsrising given that the two primary military thinkers of the NRA, Lundendorff and Chiang, had fought for Germany during the Great War. This German influence carried strongly in the adoptation of "Hutier" or "Infilitration Tactics."

Under this principle the National Revolutionary Army developed a standard procedure to deal with expected warlord resistance.

1. A short but violent artillery bombardment consisting mostly of high explosives would distrupt enemy lines.
2. A creeping barrage of poison gas and smoke shells would soon follow, disrupting enemy channels of communication/reinforcement and severely demoralizing enemy troops.
3. If the operation was being conducted at a strategic level involving Assault Divisions, these Assault divisions would be the first to rush forward, penetrating through weak points in the enemy line and rushing towards the rear areas. If Assault Divisions were not present, then the Assault Regiment integral in every 'regular' divison would take their place.
4. In the last stage of the assault, regular infantry would pour through the penetrations made by the Assault Troops and 'roll up' the enemy lines by attacking from the flanks.
5. Throughout the assault, air support provided by the Revolutionary Army Air Force would circle overhead, stafing any enemy formations that maintained cohesion and providing close air support. Air assets would also be present in the enemy rear area preventing reinforcement of the front and disrupting overall cohesion.

Although these "Assault Tactics" borrowed heavily from World War I German Army doctrine it is notable that these procedures elaborated a role for air power in the battlefield. This was no mere coincidence, the centralization of officer training of all branches of the Kuomintang miltiary in the Whampoa Military Academy had produced a high level of coordination between the Army, the Air Force and the Navy.

Overally, the theory behind much of the National Revolutionary Army doctrine before the 2nd Northern Expedition was sound. However, it remained to be seen whether these would be as effective in practise.

Next Update: The Air Force and the Navy

Comments and feedbacks welcome as always and solicited

 

[Nivek]

Thanks to everyone for all their feedback and comments

The National Revolutionary Army in Operation - Tactics and Strategy

The National Revolutionary Army was heavilly influenced by German Army operational doctrines and strategies - perhaps unsurpsrising given that the two primary military thinkers of the NRA, Lundendorff and Chiang, had fought for Germany during the Great War. This German influence carried strongly in the adoptation of "Hutier" or "Infilitration Tactics."



Under this principle the National Revolutionary Army developed a standard procedure to deal with expected warlord resistance.

1. A short but violent artillery bombardment consisting mostly of high explosives would distrupt enemy lines.
2. A creeping barrage of poison gas and smoke shells would soon follow, disrupting enemy channels of communication/reinforcement and severely demoralizing enemy troops.
3. If the operation was being conducted at a strategic level involving Assault Divisions, these Assault divisions would be the first to rush forward, penetrating through weak points in the enemy line and rushing towards the rear areas. If Assault Divisions were not present, then the Assault Regiment integral in every 'regular' divison would take their place.
4. In the last stage of the assault, regular infantry would pour through the penetrations made by the Assault Troops and 'roll up' the enemy lines by attacking from the flanks.
5. Throughout the assault, air support provided by the Revolutionary Army Air Force would circle overhead, stafing any enemy formations that maintained cohesion and providing close air support. Air assets would also be present in the enemy rear area preventing reinforcement of the front and disrupting overall cohesion.

Although these "Assault Tactics" borrowed heavily from World War I German Army doctrine it is notable that these procedures elaborated a role for air power in the battlefield. This was no mere coincidence, the centralization of officer training of all branches of the Kuomintang miltiary in the Whampoa Military Academy had produced a high level of coordination between the Army, the Air Force and the Navy.

Overally, the theory behind much of the National Revolutionary Army doctrine before the 2nd Northern Expedition was sound. However, it remained to be seen whether these would be as effective in practise.

Next Update: The Air Force and the Navy

Comments and feedbacks welcome as always and solicited

Wow, that was technically the Operation Michael main strategy(in all the sense, even the order of the steps and the necesity of air support), for that your POD althoug someones will say a little forced(more with Hitler BFF scenario) but crucial, having a China Army with that level of doctrine will make critical to make the reunification of China.

The new army organitazion, like OKH_1946 said, is the size of the most elite german division but in germany that was(will be?) only one division, here he almost all the army(with more victory and warlords who surender their territories the army easily will be equal to the red army minus the tanks,xd), and about the Tanks??, we will have Krupp, IG Farben, Junkers and etc China's branch who will be the Chinesse Military Industrial Complex(with that, the japanesse can start to fear)

And about the Japanesse, what do you will do with them???, they still want to rule 'All the chinas' and the Kanto Earthquake already happen(that was one of the most hard strike to the democratic Diet after the little wins of WW1 and the Naval Treaty) and in two year Tanaka Giichi will send the first wave of Kwantung Army in their intent of conquer china(but i think with the new more powerful Guangzhou army they will have a lot of problem), in fact, if you avoid the japanesse won and place the puppet Empire of Manchuria, automaticaly you have a lot of chance of the Chiang Kuomintang will become a great power(with the coal and iron and industries of North china in KMT hand will become a good place to make inversion)

And Sun didn't dead yet?? well that couldn't make any masive butterflies Unless he decided NOT make succesor Chiang, with that, Chiang will be only the military leader and without enough political power, that can destroy all the hard-work who has already do.

And know i want to know how you will make both the Air force and Navy(focus more in the AF, the navy will make a lot of problems with the japanesse and their BB-mania), i think Junkers here will be the answer, and for the Navy, adopt the German Kriegsmarine Submarinephile model or make more balanced(mandatory an Aircraft Carrier).

well know i want to know more can change the history(in fact i know little about 20th century history of china, but I can learn a little here) and know how will be the WWII at the Start(Germany and China is a must, Italy too, and after the fall of france and barbarossa, with China in this position can make a lot of butterflies)


Att
Nivek Beldo

 

[CCA]

Wow, that was technically the Operation Michael main strategy(in all the sense, even the order of the steps and the necesity of air support), for that your POD althoug someones will say a little forced(more with Hitler BFF scenario) but crucial, having a China Army with that level of doctrine will make critical to make the reunification of China.

It's a bit forced yeah, but it makes sense in the context. More than half of the NRA's military advisers are German. Chiang Kai-Shek fought in the German Army. Why wouldn't they adopt German doctrine word for word?


The new army organitazion, like OKH_1946 said, is the size of the most elite german division but in germany that was(will be?) only one division, here he almost all the army(with more victory and warlords who surender their territories the army easily will be equal to the red army minus the tanks,xd), and about the Tanks??, we will have Krupp, IG Farben, Junkers and etc China's branch who will be the Chinesse Military Industrial Complex(with that, the japanesse can start to fear)
[/QUOTE]

True, but will Tanks be at all useful in the Terrain? And what about logistics?

And about the Japanesse, what do you will do with them???, they still want to rule 'All the chinas' and the Kanto Earthquake already happen(that was one of the most hard strike to the democratic Diet after the little wins of WW1 and the Naval Treaty) and in two year Tanaka Giichi will send the first wave of Kwantung Army in their intent of conquer china(but i think with the new more powerful Guangzhou army they will have a lot of problem), in fact, if you avoid the japanesse won and place the puppet Empire of Manchuria, automaticaly you have a lot of chance of the Chiang Kuomintang will become a great power(with the coal and iron and industries of North china in KMT hand will become a good place to make inversion)

[/QUOTE]

To be honest I'm not too sure how to procede with the Japanese.

I'm toying with 4 basic options:

1. An Allied, still militaristic Japan that secures it's "Southern Resource Area" in the name of 'protecting' them from Chinese attack.
2. An axis Japan where China and Japan both agree on 'spheres of influences"
3. A neutral, islationist Japan.
4. A communist Japan (perhaps the most implausible?)

And Sun didn't dead yet?? well that couldn't make any masive butterflies Unless he decided NOT make succesor Chiang, with that, Chiang will be only the military leader and without enough political power, that can destroy all the hard-work who has already do.

[/QUOTE]

Sun ain't dead yet no! The massive success they're having contributes to his better health. Stay tuned for his death soon though...

And know i want to know how you will make both the Air force and Navy(focus more in the AF, the navy will make a lot of problems with the japanesse and their BB-mania), i think Junkers here will be the answer, and for the Navy, adopt the German Kriegsmarine Submarinephile model or make more balanced(mandatory an Aircraft Carrier).

[/QUOTE]

Submarines, I think are the most realistic option for China. They don't require a massive support complex and money is quite tight! That doesn't mean that there won't be any 'prestige' battleships or aircraft carries though. Hint: CNS Sun Yat-Sen

well know i want to know more can change the history(in fact i know little about 20th century history of china, but I can learn a little here) and know how will be the WWII at the Start(Germany and China is a must, Italy too, and after the fall of france and barbarossa, with China in this position can make a lot of butterflies)

Att
Nivek Beldo[/QUOTE]

There are so many butterflies that bits of history will be hurricaned away. For now, it is the mid-20's and they are quite minimal outside of China.

 

[Nivek]

It's a bit forced yeah, but it makes sense in the context. More than half of the NRA's military advisers are German. Chiang Kai-Shek fought in the German Army. Why wouldn't they adopt German doctrine word for word?



True, but will Tanks be at all useful in the Terrain? And what about logistics?



To be honest I'm not too sure how to procede with the Japanese.

I'm toying with 4 basic options:

1. An Allied, still militaristic Japan that secures it's "Southern Resource Area" in the name of 'protecting' them from Chinese attack.
2. An axis Japan where China and Japan both agree on 'spheres of influences"
3. A neutral, islationist Japan.
4. A communist Japan (perhaps the most implausible?)



Sun ain't dead yet no! The massive success they're having contributes to his better health. Stay tuned for his death soon though...



Submarines, I think are the most realistic option for China. They don't require a massive support complex and money is quite tight! That doesn't mean that there won't be any 'prestige' battleships or aircraft carries though. Hint: CNS Sun Yat-Sen


There are so many butterflies that bits of history will be hurricaned away. For now, it is the mid-20's and they are quite minimal outside of China.

Well I'm goint to respond by point(more easily):

1. the answer was pretty Obvious, and I'm know perfectly who that level of doctrine will mean the end of a lot of Warlords very quickly.

2. Again our Tanksphilia strike back, we know perfectly who Asia is NOT Continental Europe who is more Plain and with modern ways that help the movement, but with the Soviets Threat in the North(and Hitler will plead Chang to be crucial in a Double Barbarosa) and the Japanesse threat too, the tanks is long way must for China.

and about that, with China research in tanks, that will be used like a Playground/Laboratory for the German Militaries(like Guderain, Manstein, Rommel, etc) and will Improve both side Tanks doctrine( Nazi+ more Know in tanks= Hell for the Allies).

3. Japan like Always in any WWII alternate is the Wild Card of Asia, and their alienation depend of their own result. In fact, they Obviosly will attack China in 1927(a more modern NRA is no enought Detternt for them) but went they face a more difficult battle with the more powerful NRA and face a Humillation(that depend the kind of battle but is possible), that can means:
3.1. a more Radical and militaristic Japan(and maybe being Neutral or take advantage of the situation but Cooperate with China, i think will be Impossible)

3.2. A more realpolitk Japan(An Axis Japan to win both Siberia and the South Pacific or Neutral waiting to join the winner side and exploit the advantage)

3.3 That will make a Democratic Revolution(with the Military fail, that will stregth the democratic movements) and a democratic japan means automaticaly a Indenpend Korean(maybe liberate by China or the Japanese) and a Allied Japan or a Neutral one.

3.4. maybe the Revolution will be a comunist one(a little ASBish but possible because japan have a more industiral and social history) and that means a Comintern Japan and a very problematic one(that deppens of the butterflies).

i think 3.1 or 3.3 are the most possible( with the 3.2 be possible too is more moderate militaristic take the control), but again that depend the butterflies you will see went the history progress.

4. Sun with better health will make some more democratic maneover and with that China will be the more democratic Axis member(little ironic but they have a 'Honor Debt' with Germany), and that can make more butterflies to the mix

5. Yes, a more balanced but Sumarinephile Chinesse Navy( i think here both Donitz and Raeder will be like childs in a playground), and the CNS Sun Yat-Sen is more acurrate: CNS-BB Sun Yat-Sen or CNS-CV Sun Yat-Sen or Both(Both will means perfect). and for the Air force, Hugo Junker will programe a Trip to China Soon???

I know the butterflies are gigant(like Mothra size minimun,xd) and the Hurracine are more shocking, but we will wait which conclusion you obtain, that depent of a lot of analisis but the timeline is perfect like is being made now.

I wish you luck with his

Att

Nivek von Beldo.

P.S. What will be the future of the Hanjian (now will be a comunnist??)

 

[CCA]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback and comments. I'm not sure what he future of "Hanjian will be" but I do know that it won't be the Communist Party. In fact that Communist Party will be very different from what we know.

Clawing Eagle and Crouching Sealion:
Chinese Military Modernization from 1912-1926

The Air Force: The Clawing Eagle (1912-1926)

Feng Ru's demonstrative flight... which promptly crashed and caught on fire 10 seconds after take off causing substantial injuries to the pilot.

The beginnning of Chinese military aviation was not an auspicious or orderly affair. The first 'military demonstration' of the 'vast potential of military aircraft' in 1912 led to the near-death of one of the leading pioneers of Chinese aviation: "Feng Ru." The incapacitation of Feng Ru between 1912 and 1922 led to essentially a halt on all attempts to improve Chinese aviation. This period makes it abundantly clear that no other figure in China had either the drive, the skills or the will needed to get Chinese aviation 'off the ground.' Upon his recovery in 1922, Feng Ru found that although aviation had moved by leaps and bounds since his accident, Chinese aviation had in fact moved backwards as the aircraft Feng Ru had purchased and the machinery were sold off, stolen, or crumbled due to lack of maintenance.

Feng Ru was greatly stymied by lack of support among the top echelons of the Kuomintang. They were 'busy' and even when they weren't he was told that 'planes are too expensive...outright impractical, unreliable with no real military use.' The shadow of Feng Ru's failure in 1912 hung heavily on him. Frustrated Feng Ru persisted, the arrival of the German Military Mission vindicated his views as the Germans praised the merit of air power. Feng Ru also found an ally on Chiang Kai-Shek who had personally experienced the terror of an air raid. Still, Feng Ru was told that the 'Army must take preceedence.'

Undaunted by his failure to secure government support, Feng Ru persisted. Finally, after receiving 398 letters in 3 months about the merits of air power Chiang Kai-Shek finally relented. He gave Feng Ru a small amount of funds in 1923 and gave Feng Ru the position of "Air General" - in effect making Feng Ru China's first aviation minister. Despite limited resources, Feng Ru set on his task with gusto and zeal. By 1924 he had managed to find, by fair means or foul about 50 airplanes of various types and established a small workshop in Nanning. An aviation course was added to the curriculum in the Whampoa Military academy.

A mugshot of Feng Ru, taken for his passport.

Feng Ru's big break came in 1924 when he was selected to lead a purchasing commision to Europe. He came back with such a bounty of goods that Feng Ru was formally promoted to "Aviation Minister" and a "Ministry of Aviation" established. The arrival of a German Air Mission headed by Gunther Pluschow also was a bright prospect, as was the numerous air craft he had purchased.

1925 was a busy year for Feng Ru as he set about the task of organizing an Air Force. A dilema was posed whether to have an "independent air force" or a "support air force." It was unanimously decided by all to have a "Support Air Force." Although the Chinese Air Services would have separate ranks and a seperate chain of command from the regular army, air squadrons would be integrated within the divisional command structure. It would be attached, along with it's support components to the divisional headquarters. The purpose of the Air Services would be to act as the "eyes and ears" of the Chinese Army and also as "it's claws and teeth." Feng Ru and Chiang agreed that the Air Services would be "like an eagle."

The German "Taube" (dove) which the "Feng Ru IV" was designed from. The Feng Ru IV had a slighly more powerful engine which allowed 1 Guangzho light machine gun to be placed.

Feng Ru's small workshop was transformed into a factory, where Feng Ru once made 1 plane a month, now there were 10 planes. The "Feng Ru V" design bore a remarkable similarity to a late German design the "Junkers D.1." It was remarkably modern, remarkably fast, and remarkably rugged - a far cry from the "Feng Ru IV" which resembled an early German air design the "Taube". There was simply no way that Feng Ru could have designed or manufactured the "Feng Ru V" without significant German assistance.

Schematics of the German Air Force "Junkers D1." Without significant German assistance, there was simply no way that the Chinese Air Services could field or manufacture such an advanced air craft. The Feng Ru V was pretty much an exact copy with the exception of a lighter machine gun the Guangzho light machine gun (modified.) This made it somewhat faster and more agile in combat, but not by much.

At the dawn of the 2nd Northern Expedition, the Chinese Air Services had grown into a force 500 air planes divided into 70 squadrons with 7 air craft to a squadron. Each squadron was attached to a division and led by an Air Captain.

Inventory of Chinese Air Planes:

100 x Feng Ru V (modified Junkers D.I)
50 x Feng Ru IV (modified Taubes)
200 x Nieuport 17*
50 x Sopwith Pups*
50 x Capriconi Ca.3 bomber
50 x miscellaneous planes of various types.

* - Indicates modified to use the modified Guangzhou light machine gun


Crouching Sealion: Chinese Navy from 1912-1926
Unlike the area of aviation, there was no one in the Chinese Navy with enough drive, inspiration or whatever it is that separates pioneers and dreamers from merely competent men. As a result, the Chinese Navy from 1912 - 1924 was a flottilla of decayed and obsolete ships from the Qing Era.

Wilhelm Canaris, the head of the German Naval Mission

All this would change with the arrival of the German Naval Mission headed by Wilhelm Canaris in early 1925. Canaris pursued a programme of swift modernization and training with a Naval curriculum being added to the Whampoa military academy. Canaris's vision for the Chinese Navy was for a significant brown water navy with a balanced component of cruisers, battleships, destroyers and other aircraft. However Canaris was a realist, he knew that China was not (at least yet) capable of constructing, let alone maintaining such a fleet. Submarines were a more realistic focus for the limited industrial base of South China. The Chinese Navy would use the "tactics and strategy of the weak against the strong" it would focus on mines and torpedoes - a low-cost strategy that could nevertheless pose a significant challenge to any navy. Of particular concern was any possible British "intervention" being staged from Hong Kong. China quickly needed a low-cost solution to her problems.

A Chinese "V-Ship" in action.

The solution was found in the duō yòng tú chuán or vielseitige Schiffe. More commonly known as "V-Ships." The Vielseitige Schiffe could be made from a fishing trawler, in fact it was essentially a fishing trawler with the fishing equipment removed to make way for a deck mounted torpedo launcher, a deck mounted minelayer and a 76mm field gun. (Hence the term "versatile ship." Best of all, the V-Ships could be constructed on the cheap and with existing Chinese manufacturing capability.

Still, for the sake of pride China still wanted a few big ships, if only for appearances sake. A loophole was quickly found in the Treaty of Versailles. Germany may have been forbidden to construct bigger battleships, but if she could build China up to eventually build bigger ships for Germany, then it could dodge the words of the Treaty of Versailles. German aid extended to the construction of a modern shipyard in Guangzhou.

For now, the dreams of Chinese battleships remained a fantasty. By the beginning of the Second Northern Expediction China possessed:

1 x Light Cruiser ( The Guangjia "Composite Cruiser" from Qing Era times)
25 x V-Ships
50 x Other ships of various types (supply vessels, minelayers, small patrol craft etc.)

Next Update: The Second Northern Expedition

Feedback and comments welcome as always (in fact solicited!)

 

[FDW]

This has been really good so far, I can't to see where you take this TL in the months to come.

 

[Nivek]

Well a very good post, you make vrey good detail about the (for the TL perspective) Newlyborn Chinesse Air Force and partial Navy.

Feng Ru, like Heydrik said in this 'super power empire' was the aviator who never was, now with his help(and german help too), he made possible a decent air force for china(crucial for the next offensive)

Yes, the a Big like Great Power navy is still a dream for the actual China(in fact for that the title of the segment, Seelowe,) but if Chiang and another can keep together the Kuomitang(Avoid but i see a little difficult, the Central Plains War) maybe for the 1939 will be see a Kriegsmarine-level(a least) Chinesse Navy(mandatory for a Agresive Japan).

Well we gonna see a new(butterflie product) Northern Expedition , but know with a World War level NRA, this now gonna se more easy to accomplish, but after that is critical, because start the internal divisions between the Kuomitang in different branch, and with the Northern area secure, you have to recuperate(is a MUST) the Manchuria Area(the most rich in Coal and Iron, critical for become china a great power again) and face the first strikes against the Kwantung Army and later the IJA, but that is more in the future.

And about the Communist... what Mao and their Clique are doing(because still the Soviets are supporting the Kuomitang and their no make affections agains any direct rival,in fact the communist are only a lost of angry peasant with little power), you have to face the way to kill him and the another commies before they will become a major pain in the neck.

I love this TL, I'm start to learn about the history of China(something very ignorate for the Western Culture, and very difficult to understand) and see how massive are the butterflies(China have a more decent Armed Force and still is the 20's, how will be when Hitler become Kanzler and Later Fuhrer, when he can make more massive support for China) and some German Specialist start to learn how to develpomt war in Exterme Conditions, something vital for the future

Waiting for more and pleased and conglaturated you for the TL

Att

Nivek Beldo

P.S. When Finally Sun Yat-Sen gonna die? I'm start to read about him and China(the modern OTL one) debt a lot to him,, but in a curios Point of View is like the Chinesse Equivalent to Paul Von Hidenburg(the only one who can keep the balance)

 

[Dan Reilly The Great]

Still, for the sake of pride China still wanted a few big ships, if only for appearances sake. A loophole was quickly found in the Treaty of Versailles. Germany may have been forbidden to construct bigger battleships, but if she could build China up to eventually build bigger ships for Germany, then it could dodge the words of the Treaty of Versailles. German aid extended to the construction of a modern shipyard in Guangzhou.

For now, the dreams of Chinese battleships remained a fantasty. By the beginning of the Second Northern Expediction China possessed:

So are we going to see Chinese built battleships crewed by German "volunteers"? I smell a Kreigsmarine Wank.

 

[CCA]

(Just trying a style of writing - I'll give replies to replies later, just need to get the writing bug out)

Ming Sun was nervous. He was supposed to take off at 0600 but his watch had stopped. He hoped that a whistle would blow. Something, anything to remind him. The most important day of the revolution, no, the most important day of his life so far he would have to miss because of an errant watch.

Still, the dawn was breaking. Ming didn't think it would matter too much whether or not he took off in time, none of the rabble fielded by the "Dog Meat General" would likely have anything up in the air. His mission couldn't be any simpler either - shoot up the Dogmeat General's troops and bomb them. To accomplish the task he had two 50 kilo bombs slung under the taube and one Guangzhou Air Machine Gun - a modified chauchat firing 7.92mm bullets from a 100-round cartridge.

He nodded to the ground crew men either side of the plane. They moved into position, one man would spin the prop and one man would push his Taube to get it into the air. It was just his misfortune getting one of China's most ancient planes, rumour even had it that Feng Ru himself had flown it! He felt a stab of jealousy to the others in his squadron, there was even one Feng Ru V plane in it! The pilot, Tao Min was the captain of the squadron, perhaps it wasn't a coincidence after all...

Such concerns flew from his mind when the Taube's engine sputtered into life when it died. They should only really use these planes for training... Ming thought glumly. The ground crew tried again. It was finally happening, the propeller buzzed into life, he was moving, slowly... slowly...

And then he was airborne. At first it was only the first half of the aircraft but one final shove by the crew finally got him there. He was flying. Somewhat belatedly he scanned the instrument panels. Fuel... check. Oil.. check. Altitude... gaining. Ming aimed to fly at about 500 meters and then swoop down to attack, the Taubes all fabric construction made it near transparent and almost impossible to spot.

He scanned the distant horizon for the signs of the trenches and other fieldwork that the Dogmeat General's troops had constructed. He spotted some trenches, they must've been empty for no bullets cracked past his head to greet him. "They must still be sleeping," he thought happilly. But perhaps not, he spotted a black smoke coming from a distance and spied some troops gathered around a pot in the fire with tents to the side. Ming grinned, he hadn't realized his first kill wouuld be so easy.

The soldiers scattered, some fired back with their rifles and pistols, others ran away screaming in confusion at a sight they'd never seen before. Ming pulled the levers that held the two bombs. They dropped, scattering nails and other shrapnel all around the small encapment. Men screamed in pain, misery and terror. Ming grinned from ear to ear.

He swung his Taube around, intending to make another pass. He did, raking over the encampment twice till his machine gun ran out of ammo. When he did, Ming flew back south towards the makeshift aerodome. He didn't think he did too bad for his first encounter with the enemy. Nary a scratch on him or his Taube. Life was good.

 

[ComradeTovarich]

Nice narrative, CCA. I hope to see you intergrate the narrative writing style into your mostly factual TL... Keep up the good work...

 

[Nivek]

An Excellent Narrative

Well i check your Narrative Type Update and I loved it, was very good written(but you can improve a little the conection and comprehension for narrative sake) and show the situation of the(for TL perspective) New Air Force and their dinamics(i think is already the Second Norther expedition or Second Chiang Expedition??).

And what will happend after the Second Norther Expedition(because that start the nominal reunification of China and the Chinese Civil War with the rebeld Communist and the KMT-soviet Split, more radical because the Support to the Extreme Rigth-wing of germany), and we start with the 30's and the Calm before storm, and the Japanesse Still want to rule china(for me China was Historically fucked, and only the miracle of the WWII and the end of the Japanesse Hegemony and the Superpowers game made possible to china become a Power in their own).

And Dan Reilly The Great. I think here will no be only a Kriegsmarine-wank but a Wehrmacht-wank (because now, all the German Officers and Millitary Researcher can use China like a big field laborary thanks to the extermly Germanophile of the main officer in China(Chiang and cia), know only wait to the sino-german to make a excersite of try to Invade Japan to see the difficult of the invasion with powerful IJN in the way(maybe the will discard the unmentionable sea mammal now???). but again is only the late 20, and hitler only will have full power to 1933 for that we have a lot of time.

well i like the narrative style, try to combine with the 'historical-textbook' now and we will have an Excellent TL(maybe worth for a Novel)

Att

Nivek Beldo

P.S. When Alexander von Falkenhausen will go to China???, because in OTL he was the most Sinophile german officer and become personal friend of Chiang and was awared with the title of 'Friend of China'(or Hitler will remplace him in this TL,)

 

[Sergio Van Lukenstein]

I'm curious as to how this is going to modify the Spanish Civil War. Will Germany still use Spain as a testing/training ground to the extent that they did OTL? Will China send any "volunteers" or aid to Franco?

I'm not in THAT much of a rush, though. The '20s and the struggle against the warlords are proving to be quite interesting.

 

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

How will the warlords be treated if captured? Some of them could be put on trial for banditism and/or treason against the Chines nation, publicly humiliated, all for propaganda purposes.

If there is still a Japanes attack, it might come earlier than IOTL, the Japanes would fear less a soviet intervention in a war against China if the Chines are pro-German.
Otherwise (realising the threat of the USA, wich would be more active than IOTL due to the Chines position), the Japanes might forme an earlier asian cooprosperity sphere with China and both would unite and sucessfully wage war against colonial opression in asia.