Oh they do though:
(Sorry it's kinda my bad. Map making is a serious weakness of mine and this TL)
Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
- Thread starter CCA
- Start date
Oh they do though:
(Sorry it's kinda my bad. Map making is a serious weakness of mine and this TL)
There’s an OTL quote from JFK that I think will be very relevant in this TL: “We must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind.”
I think there will be a much greater portion of people than OTL who hold such sentiments. How exactly that manifests on the political stage, I’m not sure.
Also looking at the above map it strikes me just how long the frontline(s) is/are. Puts OTL to shame.
I think there will be a much greater portion of people than OTL who hold such sentiments. How exactly that manifests on the political stage, I’m not sure.
Also looking at the above map it strikes me just how long the frontline(s) is/are. Puts OTL to shame.
You are definitely going to want to add independence for Uzbekistan as one of the Chinese goals. They can have it split like Khiva and Bukhara, with the Soviets keeping the northern areas. But yah, without Uzbekistan it is going to be hell connecting any of those mountainous areas.Oh they do though:
(Sorry it's kinda my bad. Map making is a serious weakness of mine and this TL)
I still find that highly implausible due to logistics, especially since they supposedly went far enough to pillage Baku.
The price of peace: The New York Peace Conference and the Entente’s position.
The price of peace: The New York Peace Conference and the Entente’s position.
Although an uneasy peace had fallen across the world there was still no guarantee that it would last. As the various powers jockeyed and positioned for influence ahead of the New York Peace Talks there was furious discussion about bottom lines, priority positions and other demands. The following is an attempt to construct a brief analysis of the negotiating position, demands and delegations of the Entente nations and the Soviet Union.
Molotov was actually fluent in two languages: Russian and clapping at whatever Stalin said.
Soviet Union:
The Soviet’s main priority was to secure a border as far west as possible to serve as a buffer to German aggression and to see the return of the breakway central Asian Republics. It’s not that they were particularly valuable (with the exception of Kyrgyzstan's substantial mineral reserves.) But Stalin wanted to nip ‘national fascism’ in the bud and saw the return of Soviet territory as a bottom line.
Stalin’s secondary tier priorities was to prevent the Blood and Iron line from continuing and also to maintain the Soviet position on Manchuria - gaining recognition for the legal independence of the People’s Republic of Manchuria if possible.
Low Soviet priorities included securing a corridor to India through either Iran or Afghanistan and getting formal recognition of the People’s Republic of India’s rights over the rest of the Indian continent.
Leading the Soviet delegation was Stalin’s right-hand man and long time Old Bolshevik Vyacheslav Molotov. Although Molotov was not fluent in any tongue besides Russian, this was used as a negotiation tactic by Molotov as he asked the translator to repeat the translation to stall for time to give him time to think.
In addition, Molotov was well liked by the Entente as he had led efforts and coordination with them during the war.
Bottom lines: Return of all Soviet territory. Moving the Soviet border as Westwards as possible.
Secondary priorities: Prevent the Blood and Iron line from continuing. Recognition of the Manchurian People’s Republic and Soviet interests. Maintenance of the Soviet position in the Balkans.
Low priorities: Indian corridor. Formal recognition of PRI’s rights. Soviet Hegemony over the balkans.
United Kingdom:
Of all the Great Powers, the United Kingdom had perhaps lost the most in the conflict - with discontent in her empire, the loss of much of India (the Jewel of the crown), the loss of Burma and the loss of much of men across her Empire was keenly felt. Rebellion and discontent was also spreading it’s way to the colonies with a growing insurgency and peaceful resistance. Perhaps this was why Prime Minister Eden decided to attend the conference personally, by going personally, Eden was hoping to leverage his personal charm and shared cultural legacy with the Americans into favourable concessions.
Bottom lines: Peace. The preservation of the remaining colonies.
Secondary priorities: Return of Burma. Recognition of the Dominion of India’s claims to the rest of India.
Low priorities: Limiting Axis gains as much as possible. Freeing the Netherlands, Czecheslovakia and the Scandinavian countries from Axis occupation.
France:
In comparison to her British ally, France had not lost as much. Although half of Indochina had been lost, the core of Metropolitan France had been secured - at the great cost of another generation of young men. The divided French government instructed French Foreign Minister Joseph Paul-Boncour to make peace urgently with the only bottom line being the integrity of Metropolitan France. If possible, Paul-Boncour would see French interests in Indochina secured and the Netherlands, Scandinavia and Czechoslovakia freed but these were fairly low priorities compared to peace.
Bottom lines: Peace. No Metropolitan part of France to be handed over to the boches.
Secondary priorities: Recognition of French interests in Indochina.
Low priorities: Liberation of German occupied territory.
Japan:
Japan arrived at the peace conference relatively happy with her gains in the war. She’d managed to seize the riches of the Dutch East Indies with the complicity of her Entente allies. Although, she had lost her interests in Manchuria and her Chinese concessions, Japan had actually gained territory during the war. Japan was determined to hang onto these gains, get Manchuria back if possible and contain the Chinese and the Soviets.
Japan’s man on the ground at the conference was Foreign Minister Kichisaburo Nomura who was the former ambassador to the US. Speaking fluent English, Nomura would attempt to gain the favour of the US mediators during the conference.
Bottom lines: Recognition of new status quo on the Japanese East Indies.
Secondary priorities: Return of Manchuria concessions and Chinese concessions.
Low priorities: Limit the gains of the Chinese and the Soviets.
Although an uneasy peace had fallen across the world there was still no guarantee that it would last. As the various powers jockeyed and positioned for influence ahead of the New York Peace Talks there was furious discussion about bottom lines, priority positions and other demands. The following is an attempt to construct a brief analysis of the negotiating position, demands and delegations of the Entente nations and the Soviet Union.
Molotov was actually fluent in two languages: Russian and clapping at whatever Stalin said.
Soviet Union:
The Soviet’s main priority was to secure a border as far west as possible to serve as a buffer to German aggression and to see the return of the breakway central Asian Republics. It’s not that they were particularly valuable (with the exception of Kyrgyzstan's substantial mineral reserves.) But Stalin wanted to nip ‘national fascism’ in the bud and saw the return of Soviet territory as a bottom line.
Stalin’s secondary tier priorities was to prevent the Blood and Iron line from continuing and also to maintain the Soviet position on Manchuria - gaining recognition for the legal independence of the People’s Republic of Manchuria if possible.
Low Soviet priorities included securing a corridor to India through either Iran or Afghanistan and getting formal recognition of the People’s Republic of India’s rights over the rest of the Indian continent.
Leading the Soviet delegation was Stalin’s right-hand man and long time Old Bolshevik Vyacheslav Molotov. Although Molotov was not fluent in any tongue besides Russian, this was used as a negotiation tactic by Molotov as he asked the translator to repeat the translation to stall for time to give him time to think.
In addition, Molotov was well liked by the Entente as he had led efforts and coordination with them during the war.
Bottom lines: Return of all Soviet territory. Moving the Soviet border as Westwards as possible.
Secondary priorities: Prevent the Blood and Iron line from continuing. Recognition of the Manchurian People’s Republic and Soviet interests. Maintenance of the Soviet position in the Balkans.
Low priorities: Indian corridor. Formal recognition of PRI’s rights. Soviet Hegemony over the balkans.
United Kingdom:
Of all the Great Powers, the United Kingdom had perhaps lost the most in the conflict - with discontent in her empire, the loss of much of India (the Jewel of the crown), the loss of Burma and the loss of much of men across her Empire was keenly felt. Rebellion and discontent was also spreading it’s way to the colonies with a growing insurgency and peaceful resistance. Perhaps this was why Prime Minister Eden decided to attend the conference personally, by going personally, Eden was hoping to leverage his personal charm and shared cultural legacy with the Americans into favourable concessions.
Bottom lines: Peace. The preservation of the remaining colonies.
Secondary priorities: Return of Burma. Recognition of the Dominion of India’s claims to the rest of India.
Low priorities: Limiting Axis gains as much as possible. Freeing the Netherlands, Czecheslovakia and the Scandinavian countries from Axis occupation.
France:
In comparison to her British ally, France had not lost as much. Although half of Indochina had been lost, the core of Metropolitan France had been secured - at the great cost of another generation of young men. The divided French government instructed French Foreign Minister Joseph Paul-Boncour to make peace urgently with the only bottom line being the integrity of Metropolitan France. If possible, Paul-Boncour would see French interests in Indochina secured and the Netherlands, Scandinavia and Czechoslovakia freed but these were fairly low priorities compared to peace.
Bottom lines: Peace. No Metropolitan part of France to be handed over to the boches.
Secondary priorities: Recognition of French interests in Indochina.
Low priorities: Liberation of German occupied territory.
Japan:
Japan arrived at the peace conference relatively happy with her gains in the war. She’d managed to seize the riches of the Dutch East Indies with the complicity of her Entente allies. Although, she had lost her interests in Manchuria and her Chinese concessions, Japan had actually gained territory during the war. Japan was determined to hang onto these gains, get Manchuria back if possible and contain the Chinese and the Soviets.
Japan’s man on the ground at the conference was Foreign Minister Kichisaburo Nomura who was the former ambassador to the US. Speaking fluent English, Nomura would attempt to gain the favour of the US mediators during the conference.
Bottom lines: Recognition of new status quo on the Japanese East Indies.
Secondary priorities: Return of Manchuria concessions and Chinese concessions.
Low priorities: Limit the gains of the Chinese and the Soviets.
Look back towards the beginning for the caption “here’s Wang getting drunk with some Nazis”
Also I just had a closer look at that photo is that Beria in the background?
The San Francisco Conference - Initial Stages:
The San Francisco Conference - Initial Stages:
Although initially slated to take place at New York, the Soviet Union had objected to the travel distance between Russian territory and the conference. In this she was surprisingly supported by China, Japan and Germany. China wanted a shorter trip for her diplomats, as did Japan and Hitler disliked New York as a ‘nest of judeo-bolshevist-capitalists.’ With 4/7 parties in agreement - the host country agreed to move the conference to San Francisco. On April 1, delegates from all over the world gathered in San Francisco where they were addressed and welcomed by Vice President Harry Truman.
US Army Troops and Naitonal guard units helping put down the San Francisco Chopsticks Riot
The expectation that the conference would finish within two months was misguided. The first month of the conference was taken up with boring administrative fights about seating, hotel rooms and speaking order. Halfway towards April a big fight broke out between the low ranking members (translators, secretaries and other low level diplomats) Chinese and the Japanese delegations about who invented the chopstick. The Italian and German delegations loyally waded into the fray with their Chinese comrades and the British and French likewise backed up the Japanese. The Soviets joined their bemused American hosts in expressing surprise as they drank Russian vodka and ate American popcorn. Bemusement and bet-taking turned into horror as the fracas spread throughout San Francisco with Japanese and Chinese communities attacking each other. While the “San Francisco riots” became infamous, the respective Japanese and Chinese governments refused to apologize. The Chinese and Japanese governments awarded combat decorations and wounded badge medals to those who had taken part in the fracas (the only case of diplomats being awarded combat awards during either Great War.)
The second month was also farcical but likewise serious - both the Axis and Entente had bought along contingents of their puppet government which purported to speak for the particular country under occupation/liberation. While some were broadly respected and had international legitimacy like the Greek Peoples Government (formerly in exile in London - now back in Athens as a “Monarcho-Communist” state) others were complete farces like the “German Democratic Republic” set up in Konigsberg by Soviet troops and the various Baltic socialist republics that had magically been conjured into existence despite being almost under a decade long occupation and who’s diplomats at the conference were former NKVD agents. In between these were the countries where there was genuine debate where legitimacy lay such as the three Indias, the two Romanias and the two Polands. There was serious arguments about which government would be speaking for whom and which governments would be allowed representation. The “Hull Compromise” was that no governments claiming to represent another nation that already was formally represented in the negotiation would be allowed and that a government had to physically occupy at least half of the territories it was claiming to represent in order to be represented with an exception made for the Republic of India, the People’s Republic of India and the Dominion of India.
By the end of June, these nations were the official ones allowed during the conference:
Axis:
Germany
Italy
China
Persia
Afghanistan
Uzbekistan
Turkmenistan
Tajikstan
Kazakstan
Reichsprotektorate of the Netherlands
Denmark
Norway
The Republic of Poland
The Kingdom of Yugoslavia
The Republic of Indochina
The Republic of India
The Kingdom of Romania
Entente:
United Kingdom
Republic of France
Empire of Japan
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
The Polish Socialist Republic
The Lithuanian Socialist Republic
The Latvian Socialist Republic
The Estonian Socialist Republic
The Romanian Socialist Republic
Kingdom of Belgium
Duchy of Luxenburg
The Kingdom of Bulgaria
The Kingdom of Greece
The People’s Republic of Mancuria
The Dominion of India
The People’s Republic of India
The Kingdom of Libya
The Kingdom of Ethiopia
The Kingdom of Egypt
The Dominion of Australia
The Dominion of Canada
The Dominion of New Zealand
The Dominion of the Caribbean Federation
The Kingdom of Sarawak
The Dominion of South Africa
With the shitfighting (mostly) out of the way, the parties were ready to go to work.
Next: The San Francisco Conference - Europe
Although initially slated to take place at New York, the Soviet Union had objected to the travel distance between Russian territory and the conference. In this she was surprisingly supported by China, Japan and Germany. China wanted a shorter trip for her diplomats, as did Japan and Hitler disliked New York as a ‘nest of judeo-bolshevist-capitalists.’ With 4/7 parties in agreement - the host country agreed to move the conference to San Francisco. On April 1, delegates from all over the world gathered in San Francisco where they were addressed and welcomed by Vice President Harry Truman.
US Army Troops and Naitonal guard units helping put down the San Francisco Chopsticks Riot
The expectation that the conference would finish within two months was misguided. The first month of the conference was taken up with boring administrative fights about seating, hotel rooms and speaking order. Halfway towards April a big fight broke out between the low ranking members (translators, secretaries and other low level diplomats) Chinese and the Japanese delegations about who invented the chopstick. The Italian and German delegations loyally waded into the fray with their Chinese comrades and the British and French likewise backed up the Japanese. The Soviets joined their bemused American hosts in expressing surprise as they drank Russian vodka and ate American popcorn. Bemusement and bet-taking turned into horror as the fracas spread throughout San Francisco with Japanese and Chinese communities attacking each other. While the “San Francisco riots” became infamous, the respective Japanese and Chinese governments refused to apologize. The Chinese and Japanese governments awarded combat decorations and wounded badge medals to those who had taken part in the fracas (the only case of diplomats being awarded combat awards during either Great War.)
The second month was also farcical but likewise serious - both the Axis and Entente had bought along contingents of their puppet government which purported to speak for the particular country under occupation/liberation. While some were broadly respected and had international legitimacy like the Greek Peoples Government (formerly in exile in London - now back in Athens as a “Monarcho-Communist” state) others were complete farces like the “German Democratic Republic” set up in Konigsberg by Soviet troops and the various Baltic socialist republics that had magically been conjured into existence despite being almost under a decade long occupation and who’s diplomats at the conference were former NKVD agents. In between these were the countries where there was genuine debate where legitimacy lay such as the three Indias, the two Romanias and the two Polands. There was serious arguments about which government would be speaking for whom and which governments would be allowed representation. The “Hull Compromise” was that no governments claiming to represent another nation that already was formally represented in the negotiation would be allowed and that a government had to physically occupy at least half of the territories it was claiming to represent in order to be represented with an exception made for the Republic of India, the People’s Republic of India and the Dominion of India.
By the end of June, these nations were the official ones allowed during the conference:
Axis:
Germany
Italy
China
Persia
Afghanistan
Uzbekistan
Turkmenistan
Tajikstan
Kazakstan
Reichsprotektorate of the Netherlands
Denmark
Norway
The Republic of Poland
The Kingdom of Yugoslavia
The Republic of Indochina
The Republic of India
The Kingdom of Romania
Entente:
United Kingdom
Republic of France
Empire of Japan
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
The Polish Socialist Republic
The Lithuanian Socialist Republic
The Latvian Socialist Republic
The Estonian Socialist Republic
The Romanian Socialist Republic
Kingdom of Belgium
Duchy of Luxenburg
The Kingdom of Bulgaria
The Kingdom of Greece
The People’s Republic of Mancuria
The Dominion of India
The People’s Republic of India
The Kingdom of Libya
The Kingdom of Ethiopia
The Kingdom of Egypt
The Dominion of Australia
The Dominion of Canada
The Dominion of New Zealand
The Dominion of the Caribbean Federation
The Kingdom of Sarawak
The Dominion of South Africa
With the shitfighting (mostly) out of the way, the parties were ready to go to work.
Next: The San Francisco Conference - Europe
