I see no reason to use a different thread for the post-war updates. It's still the same timeline after all.
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Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
- Thread starter CCA
- Start date
A new thread for each country? It would seem almost spammy, and people would ask the same questions repeatedly due to not knowing what was happening in the other thread if nothing else, keeping it in one thread means we can use the search function easily. On a side note, many of your images from early on no longer work. Hope you got copies of those tucked away in a folder on your PC.
Are the Dutch officially allied with the Entente? If so, perhaps Japan could spare a division or two to beat down that insurgency in Indonesia... and in the process 'encourage' the natives to align with them rather than the europeans.
The firebombing of Japan here is probably actually less than what the USA accomplished OTL with Napalm since China is stuck with zeppelins rather than swarms of bombers. (No blame here, just statistics) As with a lot of TTL, there are actually FEWER atrocities than OTL, it’s just that nobody ITTL knows that and the historiography is different. Really makes you think about just how truly horrible OTL was!
P.S. I imagine the firebomb zeppelins are basically on suicide missions because I can’t imagine they do well evading AAA and air patrols.
P.S. I imagine the firebomb zeppelins are basically on suicide missions because I can’t imagine they do well evading AAA and air patrols.
Really, zeppelins had trouble with AA in the FIRST world war, their attrition rate must be horrible here. And by now the Entente pilots have probably learnt not to attack the gas bag, and instead shoot out the engines and control rooms.
Its pretty sobering that OTL is so dystopian compared to a lot of TL's we read
1944 - July - December the European Front
1944 - July - December the European Front
Polish (Axis) troops fighting in Warsaw. By the time of the ceasefire, they had successfully captured Western Warsaw
Polish Front:
A big Axis offensive involving Army Group North - Guderian (3 million men) and Army Group Center - Rundstedt (1.5 million men) and the Polish Army - Rommel (500k) against newly appointed Marshal Rokossovsky’s 3 million strong Red Army and the 200k in the Red Polish divisions was cancelled after the hasty redeployment of Army Group Center to the Balkans.
Nonetheless, Guderian - due to political pressure from the Juliusz Rommel, (who wanted to free Poland) and Hitler, (who wanted to liberate East Prussia) had to launch offensives. Probing all along the front - he made advances where the Soviet resistance was the lightest. By the Christmas Armistice, he had advanced mostly in the South, advancing to Lublin and Lvov, grinding his way to the west bank of Warsaw in the Center, but made no real progress in the North where the Soviet army was putting up a fierce resistance using the river Vistula to great effect.
The Romanian Front:
The battered troops of Kesselring’s Army Group South held fast in their defensive positions as Buddyonny’s soldiers battered themselves against the Carpathians and the Ploetsi defences. However, despite the bloody nature of the front in many ways the attention and resources had shifted to the south where a sudden strategic stroke opened up a new front.
A bombed out building in Sophia. The "Scouring of Sophia" destroyed the City - but also the Luftwaffe.
The Balkan Front:
Italy had mostly stayed out of Soviet War. Some Italian troops were sent east to help defend Poland and were fighting in the Army Group North and Center, but the bulk of the Italian soldiery were engaging in massive staring contests with the French soldiers across the alps. A small contingent of Italian troops garrisoned Greece which had remained relatively peaceful and quiet with very small scale guerilla action.
That all changed on 4 July when Bulgaria’s government declared itself as part of the Entente and invited ‘allied and co-belligerent troops’ to help defend her country’s territorial integrity. Suddenly 3 million men commanded by Marshal Zhukov in the Balkan Front stormed south towards greece where a well-timed underground movement which had so far been content to remain passive and present a front of compliance. Suddenly the small Italian garrison army of only 150,000 found itself cut off, besieged in their barracks and attacked in patrols by what seemed to be the spontaneous uprising of an entire population.
Although the Italian Army in Albania was swiftly reinforced and ordered across, by July 24 it was too late. The Greek resistance and Red Army troops had liberated much of Greece with only a small portion around Ioannina and Arta still in Italian control in the Greek mainland. Italy managed to stay in control of the Dodecanese islands and Crete.
Hitler’s response to Bulgarian betrayal was characteristically insane. Ordering the Luftwaffe to concentrate their efforts solely in bombing Sophia as ‘punishment’ the city was levelled but at the cost of the Luftwaffe being wrecked as a fighting force and being unable to blunt the Soviet advance. Hereafter, German air superiority in the Eastern Front was no longer a guarantee.
The transfer of Army Group Center to the Balkans - where they gained the designation Army Group Center was too little too late to retrive the strategic situation. By the time that the Axis counteroffensive was launched on August 1, it was too late as Soviet/Entente forces were in control in Bulgaria and much of Greece.
That didn’t stop the fighting - far from it, the last 4 months of the war were one of the bloodiest per kilometer with fighting reminiscent of the Western Front and of the Manchuria Front. Nonetheless, it didn’t change anything.
Western Europe and the fight for peace:
The American election and Wallace’s promise to launch an embargo on all powers and force a peace caused the collapse of the French government and new elections. The new coalition - a shaky alliance of the Trotskyist left, the Petanist Right and the disgruntled splinter parties of the former center was united only in seeking peace. Peace hopes were further aided by the publication of a Papal Encyclical by Pope Pius XII “On Peace and Brotherly Love” where called on Catholics to seek peace and called for peace.
When Wallace won on November 7, the talks of peace continued apace. French and British diplomats lobbied the Soviet Union to come to the peace table, saying that their populations would no longer support the war and that the Soviets would be left to fight a two front war alone. Chiang called Hitler and said that China was close to famine and that they only had sufficient supply to feed the population enough to sustain the war effort until January 30 1945. After that, he estimated that the Chinese could continue the war for another 2-3 months before they starved to the point of ineffectiveness, but he was determined to end the war before that and was eager to participate in the peace process and urged Hitler to do the same. Mussolini, humiliated by a Fascist Grand Council vote which installed Count Ciano as his foreign minister and authorized him to begin peace negotiations urged him to do the same. As did much of his generals and Albert Speer who said that the German war machine only had two months to go on and would run out of fuel by the end of February. Japan’s government was persuaded by her allies who said that they would go and sign a separate peace with or without her and that she would face the might of the Axis alone.
With the confluence of so many factors. The stage was set. On Christmas day, 1944 - President Henry A Wallace had announced that the conflicting powers had agreed to an immediate ceasefire and had agreed to begin peace talks in New York. The war was finally over and the guns fell silent from Warsaw to Manchuria. The war was finally over, but as thankful families and soldiers wept with tears of joy at the news - the question was - would the ceasefire last?
Polish (Axis) troops fighting in Warsaw. By the time of the ceasefire, they had successfully captured Western Warsaw
Polish Front:
A big Axis offensive involving Army Group North - Guderian (3 million men) and Army Group Center - Rundstedt (1.5 million men) and the Polish Army - Rommel (500k) against newly appointed Marshal Rokossovsky’s 3 million strong Red Army and the 200k in the Red Polish divisions was cancelled after the hasty redeployment of Army Group Center to the Balkans.
Nonetheless, Guderian - due to political pressure from the Juliusz Rommel, (who wanted to free Poland) and Hitler, (who wanted to liberate East Prussia) had to launch offensives. Probing all along the front - he made advances where the Soviet resistance was the lightest. By the Christmas Armistice, he had advanced mostly in the South, advancing to Lublin and Lvov, grinding his way to the west bank of Warsaw in the Center, but made no real progress in the North where the Soviet army was putting up a fierce resistance using the river Vistula to great effect.
The Romanian Front:
The battered troops of Kesselring’s Army Group South held fast in their defensive positions as Buddyonny’s soldiers battered themselves against the Carpathians and the Ploetsi defences. However, despite the bloody nature of the front in many ways the attention and resources had shifted to the south where a sudden strategic stroke opened up a new front.
A bombed out building in Sophia. The "Scouring of Sophia" destroyed the City - but also the Luftwaffe.
The Balkan Front:
Italy had mostly stayed out of Soviet War. Some Italian troops were sent east to help defend Poland and were fighting in the Army Group North and Center, but the bulk of the Italian soldiery were engaging in massive staring contests with the French soldiers across the alps. A small contingent of Italian troops garrisoned Greece which had remained relatively peaceful and quiet with very small scale guerilla action.
That all changed on 4 July when Bulgaria’s government declared itself as part of the Entente and invited ‘allied and co-belligerent troops’ to help defend her country’s territorial integrity. Suddenly 3 million men commanded by Marshal Zhukov in the Balkan Front stormed south towards greece where a well-timed underground movement which had so far been content to remain passive and present a front of compliance. Suddenly the small Italian garrison army of only 150,000 found itself cut off, besieged in their barracks and attacked in patrols by what seemed to be the spontaneous uprising of an entire population.
Although the Italian Army in Albania was swiftly reinforced and ordered across, by July 24 it was too late. The Greek resistance and Red Army troops had liberated much of Greece with only a small portion around Ioannina and Arta still in Italian control in the Greek mainland. Italy managed to stay in control of the Dodecanese islands and Crete.
Hitler’s response to Bulgarian betrayal was characteristically insane. Ordering the Luftwaffe to concentrate their efforts solely in bombing Sophia as ‘punishment’ the city was levelled but at the cost of the Luftwaffe being wrecked as a fighting force and being unable to blunt the Soviet advance. Hereafter, German air superiority in the Eastern Front was no longer a guarantee.
The transfer of Army Group Center to the Balkans - where they gained the designation Army Group Center was too little too late to retrive the strategic situation. By the time that the Axis counteroffensive was launched on August 1, it was too late as Soviet/Entente forces were in control in Bulgaria and much of Greece.
That didn’t stop the fighting - far from it, the last 4 months of the war were one of the bloodiest per kilometer with fighting reminiscent of the Western Front and of the Manchuria Front. Nonetheless, it didn’t change anything.
Western Europe and the fight for peace:
The American election and Wallace’s promise to launch an embargo on all powers and force a peace caused the collapse of the French government and new elections. The new coalition - a shaky alliance of the Trotskyist left, the Petanist Right and the disgruntled splinter parties of the former center was united only in seeking peace. Peace hopes were further aided by the publication of a Papal Encyclical by Pope Pius XII “On Peace and Brotherly Love” where called on Catholics to seek peace and called for peace.
When Wallace won on November 7, the talks of peace continued apace. French and British diplomats lobbied the Soviet Union to come to the peace table, saying that their populations would no longer support the war and that the Soviets would be left to fight a two front war alone. Chiang called Hitler and said that China was close to famine and that they only had sufficient supply to feed the population enough to sustain the war effort until January 30 1945. After that, he estimated that the Chinese could continue the war for another 2-3 months before they starved to the point of ineffectiveness, but he was determined to end the war before that and was eager to participate in the peace process and urged Hitler to do the same. Mussolini, humiliated by a Fascist Grand Council vote which installed Count Ciano as his foreign minister and authorized him to begin peace negotiations urged him to do the same. As did much of his generals and Albert Speer who said that the German war machine only had two months to go on and would run out of fuel by the end of February. Japan’s government was persuaded by her allies who said that they would go and sign a separate peace with or without her and that she would face the might of the Axis alone.
With the confluence of so many factors. The stage was set. On Christmas day, 1944 - President Henry A Wallace had announced that the conflicting powers had agreed to an immediate ceasefire and had agreed to begin peace talks in New York. The war was finally over and the guns fell silent from Warsaw to Manchuria. The war was finally over, but as thankful families and soldiers wept with tears of joy at the news - the question was - would the ceasefire last?
I love it! A peace of mutual exhaustion is very rare in WW2 TLs.
I get the feeling Poland (and possible Romania and Greece based on the above maps) is gonna end up like OTL post-war Germany, with Warsaw as Berlin. I doubt the Soviets will be giving up any of the territory they occupy.
I get the feeling Poland (and possible Romania and Greece based on the above maps) is gonna end up like OTL post-war Germany, with Warsaw as Berlin. I doubt the Soviets will be giving up any of the territory they occupy.
This peace will leave a multipolar world with each bloc hating others.
Anglo-French Bloc (with colonies and Dominions)
USA
German Bloc
China
Japan
Soviet Bloc
The only good relations there would be China-USA and China-Germany.
This version of Cold War will go on, at least until the Reich, Italy and their satellites collapse (because of economical incompetence, unsustainable arms race and people wanting freedom), Soviet Union collapses too, and France and Britain lose their entire colonial empires in a a bloodbath. The USA and China emerging as the victors.
Anglo-French Bloc (with colonies and Dominions)
USA
German Bloc
China
Japan
Soviet Bloc
The only good relations there would be China-USA and China-Germany.
This version of Cold War will go on, at least until the Reich, Italy and their satellites collapse (because of economical incompetence, unsustainable arms race and people wanting freedom), Soviet Union collapses too, and France and Britain lose their entire colonial empires in a a bloodbath. The USA and China emerging as the victors.
Don't forget USSR. And there is going to be a Sino-German split, as mention in the SACO update..
Indeed. This TL may not have the bloodiest WWII, but it certainly has the "most likely to leave everyone thinking it was a horrifically pointless waste of human life" WWII.
Were it not for the imminent invention of nukes, this would probably result in World War 3 in another twenty years.
On the plus side, no more issues about a Polish Corridor. Wait, never mind. I see Poland still has its coastline in full, and Danzig is mostly free from Soviets. I am expecting the Soviets are going to do a massive expulsion of Poles and Germans (probably to Siberia and Central Asia so the Germans and Poles don't get the added labor, though perhaps they decide they want to try swamping both countries with refugees) which should dilute areas in Poland with scstterings of Germans in there. The Germans are going to feel crowded and, while Poland might look tempting, attacking one of their only allies would be an issue. They are going to swamp Bohemia-Moravia.
The Soviets are in a bad place. They're running out of fuel and fascist agitation of nationalist sentiments in their minorities has them worried. Japan is actually in a pretty good place but they're still relying on the US for their raw iron so they're still vulnerable
The price of peace: The New York Peace Conference and Axis Powers’ negotiating positions.
The price of peace: The New York Peace Conference and Axis Powers’ negotiating positions.
Although an uneasy peace had fallen across the world there was still no guarantee that it would last. As the various powers jockeyed and positioned for influence ahead of the New York Peace Talks there was furious discussion about bottom lines, priority positions and other demands. The following is an attempt to construct a brief analysis of the negotiating position, demands and delegations of the various Axis Powers.
Chiang Chingkuo was Kaishek's firstborn, but least favoured son. The negotiations were an opportunity for him to prove himself to his father.
China:
The Republic of China’s main priority was the return of all Chinese territory and sovereignty over the breakaway province of Manchuria. At this point Hainan was still under Entente occupation so the return of these territories were also considered a priority. The Axis also put a high priority on maintaining the “Blood and Iron Line” across Afghanistan, Persia and Turkey. China’s negotiating position was mixed. On one hand she did not have control over the People’s Republic of China but on the other, she did occupy Soviet territory.
Leading the Chinese delegation was Kaishek’s sun Chingkuo. Chingkuo although barely 35 was well qualified for the task a multi-lingual speaker who had studied politics in Moscow, learned to be a fighter pilot in Berlin and went to Harvard as a postgraduate. Chingkuo, after a brief stint in the NRA was appointed as the ambassador to America by Wang during his President-Premiership and was still serving the ambassador to America. Kaishek hoped that the multi-lingual and urbane Chingkuo could charm the American mediators into fighting for the Chinese position.
Bottom lines: Return of Chinese territory. Sovereignty over Manchuria
Secondary priorities: Axis suzerainty over Persia and Afghanistan, recognition of independence for the Republic of India
Low priorities: The return of Formosa, recognition of Chinese rule over Burma, recognition of the Republic of Indochina’s claims over Indochina, recognition of independence for the Republics of Krygstan, Tajikstan and Turkmenistan. Recognition of Afghan annexation of Pashtuni territories of the People’s Republic of India. Other Axis demands.
Italy:
Italy’s main priority was to secure her former territories in Libya and East Africa (Eritrea and Ethiopia) and if possible - to secure Greece. However, she was in a poor negotiating spot, only holding the former Greek islands and a small trip of Greek territory adjacent to Albania.
The Italian delegation was led by Count Ciano who had been appointed to the foreign ministry over Mussolini’s objections. Despite being Mussolini’s son in law, the two had frosty relations due to Ciano’s numerous affairs and his desire to pursue a more neutral foreign policy.
Bottom lines: Return of Italian colonies. Peace
Secondary priorities: Axis suzerainty over Persia and Afghanistan. Recognition of Italian suzerainty over Greece and Albania.
Low priorities: Turning the Mediterranean into an Italian Lake (tm) Other axis demands.
Germany:
Germany’s main priority was to see the return of East Prussia and her conquests legitemized. Although Belgium and Luxemberg had slipped from Germany’s grasp - she still maintained control over the Denmark, Norway and much of the Netherlands. Hitler’s main instruction to head of delegation Ribentropp was to secure the return of East Prussia - even at the expense of bartering liberated Polish territory. The secondary priority for the delegation included maintaining the Blood and Iron Line. The restoration of the borders of her Eastern allies remained a tertiary priority - as did the return of Elsass-Lothringen (but this was not treated as a serious proposition due to the fact that France remained entirely unoccupied by Germany at this point.)
Of the three Axis delegations, Ribentropp was a liability - being regarded as a buffoon.
Bottom lines: Return of East Prussia. Recognition of German hegemony over Denmark, Norway, Netherlands.
Secondary priorities: Axis suzerainty over Persia and Afghanistan.
Low priorities: The return of Polish territory occupied by the Soviets. The return of Romanian territory occupied by the Soviets. The return of Greek territory to Italy occupied by the Soviets.
Next: The Price of Peace - Entente and the Soviet Positions
Although an uneasy peace had fallen across the world there was still no guarantee that it would last. As the various powers jockeyed and positioned for influence ahead of the New York Peace Talks there was furious discussion about bottom lines, priority positions and other demands. The following is an attempt to construct a brief analysis of the negotiating position, demands and delegations of the various Axis Powers.
Chiang Chingkuo was Kaishek's firstborn, but least favoured son. The negotiations were an opportunity for him to prove himself to his father.
China:
The Republic of China’s main priority was the return of all Chinese territory and sovereignty over the breakaway province of Manchuria. At this point Hainan was still under Entente occupation so the return of these territories were also considered a priority. The Axis also put a high priority on maintaining the “Blood and Iron Line” across Afghanistan, Persia and Turkey. China’s negotiating position was mixed. On one hand she did not have control over the People’s Republic of China but on the other, she did occupy Soviet territory.
Leading the Chinese delegation was Kaishek’s sun Chingkuo. Chingkuo although barely 35 was well qualified for the task a multi-lingual speaker who had studied politics in Moscow, learned to be a fighter pilot in Berlin and went to Harvard as a postgraduate. Chingkuo, after a brief stint in the NRA was appointed as the ambassador to America by Wang during his President-Premiership and was still serving the ambassador to America. Kaishek hoped that the multi-lingual and urbane Chingkuo could charm the American mediators into fighting for the Chinese position.
Bottom lines: Return of Chinese territory. Sovereignty over Manchuria
Secondary priorities: Axis suzerainty over Persia and Afghanistan, recognition of independence for the Republic of India
Low priorities: The return of Formosa, recognition of Chinese rule over Burma, recognition of the Republic of Indochina’s claims over Indochina, recognition of independence for the Republics of Krygstan, Tajikstan and Turkmenistan. Recognition of Afghan annexation of Pashtuni territories of the People’s Republic of India. Other Axis demands.
Italy:
Italy’s main priority was to secure her former territories in Libya and East Africa (Eritrea and Ethiopia) and if possible - to secure Greece. However, she was in a poor negotiating spot, only holding the former Greek islands and a small trip of Greek territory adjacent to Albania.
The Italian delegation was led by Count Ciano who had been appointed to the foreign ministry over Mussolini’s objections. Despite being Mussolini’s son in law, the two had frosty relations due to Ciano’s numerous affairs and his desire to pursue a more neutral foreign policy.
Bottom lines: Return of Italian colonies. Peace
Secondary priorities: Axis suzerainty over Persia and Afghanistan. Recognition of Italian suzerainty over Greece and Albania.
Low priorities: Turning the Mediterranean into an Italian Lake (tm) Other axis demands.
Germany:
Germany’s main priority was to see the return of East Prussia and her conquests legitemized. Although Belgium and Luxemberg had slipped from Germany’s grasp - she still maintained control over the Denmark, Norway and much of the Netherlands. Hitler’s main instruction to head of delegation Ribentropp was to secure the return of East Prussia - even at the expense of bartering liberated Polish territory. The secondary priority for the delegation included maintaining the Blood and Iron Line. The restoration of the borders of her Eastern allies remained a tertiary priority - as did the return of Elsass-Lothringen (but this was not treated as a serious proposition due to the fact that France remained entirely unoccupied by Germany at this point.)
Of the three Axis delegations, Ribentropp was a liability - being regarded as a buffoon.
Bottom lines: Return of East Prussia. Recognition of German hegemony over Denmark, Norway, Netherlands.
Secondary priorities: Axis suzerainty over Persia and Afghanistan.
Low priorities: The return of Polish territory occupied by the Soviets. The return of Romanian territory occupied by the Soviets. The return of Greek territory to Italy occupied by the Soviets.
Next: The Price of Peace - Entente and the Soviet Positions
I suspect nobody is going to come out of this conference happy.
I doubt the Axis are going to get to keep Persia: they don't even share a border with it and the USSR was on the verge of cutting it off completely when the surrender happened.
I doubt the Axis are going to get to keep Persia: they don't even share a border with it and the USSR was on the verge of cutting it off completely when the surrender happened.