Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
- Thread starter CCA
- Start date
Yay! It has returned!
I joined too late to comment, but I read it, loved it, cried a bit when i realised it was dead.
MAKE CHINA GREAT AGAIN!
I joined too late to comment, but I read it, loved it, cried a bit when i realised it was dead.
MAKE CHINA GREAT AGAIN!
This timeline is awesome. It's really difficult to see which powers will win, and that's the way I like it. Perhaps a Raj uprising is in the works that will make things terrible for the Allies and throw a monkey wrench in their plans, after they do reasonably well in China and seem on the verge of winning. But I'm just spitballing here.
As for who the most moral side is, I think the answer is obvious: the United States of America and other neutral powers. Historiography ITTL will probably say that the U.S learned their lesson from WW1, and found that the only winning move is not to play. Most other powers have pretty evil goals they're fighting for; Fascism, Colonialism, Communism. Only the United States isn't interested in oppressing other nations, and it shows in the fact that they're not fighting in this Imperialistic and Bloody War.
As for who the most moral side is, I think the answer is obvious: the United States of America and other neutral powers. Historiography ITTL will probably say that the U.S learned their lesson from WW1, and found that the only winning move is not to play. Most other powers have pretty evil goals they're fighting for; Fascism, Colonialism, Communism. Only the United States isn't interested in oppressing other nations, and it shows in the fact that they're not fighting in this Imperialistic and Bloody War.
In here they are a bit more thuggish though. They are pro-Chinese and celebrate in theater someone who (in the movie) is half-German, half-Chinese, they defend the Poles against the Russian invasions, they support Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan in building railroads, and they send Jews to China for work instead of making them disappear. And the grey vs grey thing here is because the Japanese have invaded China by attacking civilians and causing a flood that washed away over a dozen settlements, while there allies the Britsh and French focus on attacking China in a desire for more land, while also attacking neutral Norway. There is no genocide here, just thugs on every side, with the Chinese being seen in the best light as they were basically pulling themselves together and are led by a Christian with a nice wife who was horribly injured by a surprise attack. Hence the 'pox on both your houses'.
Are you sure? China, the Brits, the Italians, and the French are all rather grey TTL, but it's a tossup between the Nazis, and Imperial Japan for the title of pure evil TTL.
The Japanese were (and are ITTL) horribly evil what with unit 731 and their policies towards the Chinese, but remember that the Nazis were planning to exterminate every Slav in Eastern Europe, and they considered Eastern Slavs to be absolutely subhuman. With them allied to Poland, maybe Generalplan Ost isn't the same, but there's no indication that their views towards the Soviets are any milder. The Japanese are horrible, yes, but the Nazis are absolutely worse. Let's not pretend sending millions of people on virtual Death Trains to Kashgar is even remotely close to humanitarian.
I didn't say that. I am saying that the Nazis have not done it HERE. As for 'virtual' death trains, I may have not read the relevant section, but it seemed that they were sending people to work in China, while keeping their families hostage. And did Unit 731 come up here? I don't quite recall that either. But yes, this is NOT about IOTL. This is what happened so far here. They explicitly decline to try killing off Jews so far. Yes, the Nazis are horrible, thuggish, abominations. But so far they have not went over the deep end. The Anglo-French are extremely callous here and the Japanese seem to be almost going out of their way to kill civilians at times. With China on the side of Germany and being seen almost universally as victims, it means that the black and white on both sides mixes into grey.
Yes it was. Was as in the Nazi Germany from OTL's past. This Nazi Germany not only deports it's Jews, which although we don't know the death rate, obviously means much more survivors than OTLs holocaust. But more critically in the way things look is, that this 3rd Reich never invaded Poland and the USSR. That means a lot less Jews and also millions of Slavs who are not murdered, tortured, enslaved, etc in TTL.
In short, their number of victims is much lower, due to them simply not being able to get to nearly as many of them. As painful as it is to admit as much, in TTL if you add up the total number of Nazi victims, whether it's by outright murder, being worked to death, dying while being deported, etc you'll probably end with a lower number, than the people dead at the hands of the USSR or Japan.
Basically the Nazis are a deep feldgrau morality wise ITTL rather than the schutzstaffel black of OTL. They are horrible dicks, and definitely up there during this period, but the Soviets and Japanese edge them out. You also have the Old Imperialist powers acting like Italy in China, which seriously shellacks their reputations here. It's basically Great War 2: Chinese Boogalo based on what I'm reading.
anyways as for the USSR August storm offensive which will probably occur in August 1942 in this timeline , well if you look at the USSRs first major war since its inception called the Winter War 1939 to 1940, despite having massive armour, air and manpower quantitative superiority over the Finns, the Finns managed to bloody the nose of the USSR inflicting around 350,000 casualties on the Soviets while losing 70K Finns, the Finns had the advantage of 1. A bit better leadership and soldier training, quality and morale than the Soviets. , better coordination. 2. knew their home turf well and of course. 3. the harsh Finnish winter which the Soviets were not prepared for.
So in this timeline. what do we see in the planned Soviet August Storm. Soviets will probably deploy 5000 of tanks, planes , 2-3 million men, along with allied Mongolian, Japanese and Manchurian troops an extra 2 million or so men 2000 tanks and aircraft. Also with teh scale of the deployment and preperations I dont think it will be a secret to the Chinese and Germans and the Chinese will proably be planning to counter this by going into defensive positions, extensive fortifications. anti tank traps etc. also be interesting if the Chinese KMT deployed large numbers of German 88mm anti tank guns. NOt surprised the Chinese KMT will probably have a mobile reserve to be used to cut off and destroy any breakthroughs in their lines. I think Zhukov would have been purged in this timeline, he was almost purged but him being sent to the far east to counter the Japanese at Nomonhan 1939 saved him. Here no Nomonhan , Zhukov kaput. It will be funny if command of August Storm was given to Stalin's buddy the incompetent Semyon Budyonny(who at this time is probalby considered to be a good Soviet general from the civil war ). The Allies will probably be attacking during summer with poor Soviet leadership who will probably not listen to their Japanese allies (who the Soviets still hate and are wary of, remembrances of 1904 to 1905) so I expect poor coordination between the Soviets/Mongolians and the Japanese/Manchurians, vs. 8 million or more well motivated veteran well trained battle hardened KMT Chinese troops defending their home turf. I expect the Soviets to get a very bloody nose and lose a lot of tanks and men, it will be funny if the Chinese capture Soviet T-34 tanks and reverse engineer them , The allies will probably smash thru Chinese forces but will get a lot of casualties in doing so but wil bog down and stall due to poor supply infrastructure. and clumsy leadership.
I see the Chinese developing some kind of hybrid tank if their own, after capturing some Soviet T-34's.
Think something like these
Think something like these
and a disastrous poor showing by the USSR in August storm 1942 will probably prompt Hitler to launch Operation Barbarossa in 43. With the Allies bogged down in China, Germany has time to build up. Also Western USSR would be undermanned due to the Soviets pouring men to the far east to replace their huge losses.
Lets not forget that the British are planning an intervention in the South as well to help the Japanese troops, based on the thinking that 'white troops' would fare better against orientals in this case.
Furthermore, an Operation Barbarossa could in fact be perceived as a means of the Germans trying to ease the pressure against the Chinese, in addition to their more nefarious objectives for Barbarossa. The Western front though would probably remain stagnant.
Furthermore, an Operation Barbarossa could in fact be perceived as a means of the Germans trying to ease the pressure against the Chinese, in addition to their more nefarious objectives for Barbarossa. The Western front though would probably remain stagnant.
Yep the UK , French and Japanese will probably attack southern China but I think the attacks will probably bog down too due to heavy fanatical Chinese resistance, rugged terrain etc. Also I think the French will probably has the most doubts about an attack on China, I think of all the allies the French are the ones who probably want out of an invasion of China and focus more on defense of France. French and UK losing a lot of men and material and bogged down in China just results in a possible German breakthrough in Europe. Not surprised if Germany focuses on kaputing France first before turning on the USSR.
and operation barbarossa also can be perceived as not only easing the pressure against the Chinese but also taking advantage of a chance to destroy Hitlers most hated enemy Stalin and the USSR by taking Moscow while the Soviet forces are weakened and distracted elsewhere. However there is also another juicy target called Paris. again with the USSR, the UK , French getting bogged down in China just results in less forces for mainland France which Paris is just a stone throws away from the German forces. Germany could be tempted by a knockout blow on the French. then turn eastwards to the USSR.
Operation August Storm
Operation August Storm
One of the many Soviet "Volunteers" for the Manchurian Empire being searched by a German "Advisor" to the NRA.
Pre-Operation moves
It is a testament to the Soviet Union's skill at "maskirovka" that August Storm was a complete surprise when it hit. This is attributable to the fact that in the July preceeding August Storm an increasing portion of "volunteer units" were making their way to Manchurian and fighting directly under the Manchurian Empire's flag. Initially, the Soviet Union went through the effort of looking for troops that 'looked Manchurian' but as NRA troops found themselves increasingly fighting fair-skinned and fair-haired 'Volunteers' it looked increasingly like the Soviet Union would be blatantly 'non-involved' but still transparently fighting to influence the outcome. These reports of 'volunteers' were also complemented by the reports of Premier (and foreign minister) Wang Jingwei who insisted that Stalin's first blow would strike in the West and that these 'volunteers' were just a way of trying to demarcate Soviet interest. The German, Polish, Hungarian and Romanian ambassadors in Nanking also confirmed large build-ups of troops near their borders. The Census Bureau's reports of increased flow of soviet logistics and troops concentration near the Manchurian border was explained away as 'volunteer' units about to join the Manchurian Empire. This massive intelligence error was, from a certain point of view actually true as the NRA would find itself fighting against a massively expanded "Manchurian Volunteer Army."
A Soviet map detailing the movements of the "Manchurian Volunteer Army."
The Storm Hits
Operation August Storm was launched in the dying days of August - August 30. The National Revoluntionary Army was exhausted, holding a broad front streching from the outskirts of Harbin to Shenyang. The Mongolian-Chinese border, where the largest offensives were made was only very thinly defended by reserve and depleted divisions that had been rotated out of the frontline. Even the 'front-line' troops that faced the 'actual' Manchurian-Japanese units were worn down. At the same time as the "Manchurian Volunteer Army" launched it's attack the Japanese and Manchurian troops began a broad offensive all along the line. The "Manchurian Volunteer Army" commanded by Marshall Zhukov was 2.5 million strong, mechanized and equipped with cutting edge Soviet technology - supported by 22,000 artillery pieces, 5,000 tanks and self-propelled guns and 6,000 aircraft. The "Northern Expedition Army" at this point had been reduced to an army of 7 million - supported by 30,000 artillery pieces, 6,000 tanks and self-propelled guns and 5,000 aircraft. The Manchurian-Japanese troops made up about 5 million troops with 20,000 artillery pices, 1,500 tanks and self-propelled guns and 3,000 aircraft. On paper there was a rough parity of forces but although Chinese troops were battle-heardened and fought fanatical last stands which managed to stave off enciriclement - they were an Interwar Army facing off against a modern one. The Soviet T-34 and KV-1 tanks with their thick, sloped armor badly outmatched the Tianjin type 40 tank. Even the more modern Tianjin Type 42 tank could barely make a dent. Nowhere would this be more illustrated than in the Battle of Beiping - the largest tank battle in history.
The Tianjin Type 42 Tank was based on the Carro-Armato P40. It was pretty innovative in 1940.
The Battle of Beiping: The largest tank battle in history
Although the front was collapsing all around the line, NRA troops were disciplined and were retreating in an orderly fashion. It was clear that they could not stabilize a defence line in Manchurian so Chiang ordered the troops to retreat and hold a line streching from Beiping to Tianjin. But the rapidly advancing 5th Tank Army was about to cut off and loop around Beiping and race towards the sea - this would cut off the line of retreat for the troops. Cobbling together a series of reserve tank divisions and units near Nanking - General Du Yumming was ordered by Chiang to 'blunt' the spearhead of the attack and make it possible to prepare a defence. Although General Du's armored forces outnumbered the Soviets by more than 4 to 1 (4,200 vs 980) he was barely able to 'blunt' the attack and took horrific losses in doing so. The Type 40 tank (which were modified Belgian T-13 tank destroyers) was badly outmached by the more modern T-34s and the Type 42 tank were barely any better. Neither tank could effectively frontally penetrate the KV-1 and KV-2 tanks. Although the 5th Tank army was stopped General Du's army would only have 600 operational tanks to match General Grigori Shtern after the battle.
A cutaway of the BF 109F variant which the FR VIa2 was based on. This plane would create many Chinese aces during the war - but particularly during the "Red Skies" period.
Red skies over North China
Even though the Chinese Armies were badly outmatched in the front, the same would not hold for the air-war. Even though Soviet/Japanese/Manchurian airforces outnumbered the National Revolutionary Air Force by nearly 2-1 there was mimial coordination between the two and in an ironic twist the "Manchurian Volunteer Air Force" often accidentally attacked Japanese and Manchurian Air forces and vice versa. Furthermore, the FR VIa2s (licensed and modified BF 109Fs) were more than a match for the LaGGs and Yaks that were being used by the Soviet Air Force. But fundamentally - unlike armored combat - skill counted for far more in the air where a stray bullet could end your plane. The result of this minimal coordination, badly-trained Soviet air force and a battle-hardered National Revolutionary Air Force that had been in constant combat for nearly 6 years was scores of Chinese aces and lots of Soviet dead. This period of time was called the "Red skies" period after the number of dead Soviet and Japanese aviators (the Red Air force used red and the Japanese Air and Navy Air forces all used a red roundel). The NRAF's valiant defence meant that in the Northern Front - China was able to maintain limited aerial superiority and hamper the Soviet/Manchurian/Japanese offensives.
Stabilization
Although August Storm was a strategic success - it was a limited one with the bulk of NRA forces being able to escape with 6 million still standing strong. By the end of October, Chinese forces had stabilized a defensive line running from Beiping to Tianjin and the "Manchurian Volunteer Army" was strangely reluctant to advance beyond this point. Chiang had accepted the transparent and obvious fiction of the "Manchurian Volunteer Army" largely to avoid conflict with the Soviet Union and avoid opening a number of fronts. However - a front would soon be opened by the Entente in the 'soft-underbelly' of China.
OOC: Thanks for all the comments and feedback everyone. I really appreciate it. Going to be an update soon over this weekend. I'm sorry to be going at such a fast pace - but I want to go over the material and keep a sense of momentum going.
One of the many Soviet "Volunteers" for the Manchurian Empire being searched by a German "Advisor" to the NRA.
Pre-Operation moves
It is a testament to the Soviet Union's skill at "maskirovka" that August Storm was a complete surprise when it hit. This is attributable to the fact that in the July preceeding August Storm an increasing portion of "volunteer units" were making their way to Manchurian and fighting directly under the Manchurian Empire's flag. Initially, the Soviet Union went through the effort of looking for troops that 'looked Manchurian' but as NRA troops found themselves increasingly fighting fair-skinned and fair-haired 'Volunteers' it looked increasingly like the Soviet Union would be blatantly 'non-involved' but still transparently fighting to influence the outcome. These reports of 'volunteers' were also complemented by the reports of Premier (and foreign minister) Wang Jingwei who insisted that Stalin's first blow would strike in the West and that these 'volunteers' were just a way of trying to demarcate Soviet interest. The German, Polish, Hungarian and Romanian ambassadors in Nanking also confirmed large build-ups of troops near their borders. The Census Bureau's reports of increased flow of soviet logistics and troops concentration near the Manchurian border was explained away as 'volunteer' units about to join the Manchurian Empire. This massive intelligence error was, from a certain point of view actually true as the NRA would find itself fighting against a massively expanded "Manchurian Volunteer Army."
A Soviet map detailing the movements of the "Manchurian Volunteer Army."
The Storm Hits
Operation August Storm was launched in the dying days of August - August 30. The National Revoluntionary Army was exhausted, holding a broad front streching from the outskirts of Harbin to Shenyang. The Mongolian-Chinese border, where the largest offensives were made was only very thinly defended by reserve and depleted divisions that had been rotated out of the frontline. Even the 'front-line' troops that faced the 'actual' Manchurian-Japanese units were worn down. At the same time as the "Manchurian Volunteer Army" launched it's attack the Japanese and Manchurian troops began a broad offensive all along the line. The "Manchurian Volunteer Army" commanded by Marshall Zhukov was 2.5 million strong, mechanized and equipped with cutting edge Soviet technology - supported by 22,000 artillery pieces, 5,000 tanks and self-propelled guns and 6,000 aircraft. The "Northern Expedition Army" at this point had been reduced to an army of 7 million - supported by 30,000 artillery pieces, 6,000 tanks and self-propelled guns and 5,000 aircraft. The Manchurian-Japanese troops made up about 5 million troops with 20,000 artillery pices, 1,500 tanks and self-propelled guns and 3,000 aircraft. On paper there was a rough parity of forces but although Chinese troops were battle-heardened and fought fanatical last stands which managed to stave off enciriclement - they were an Interwar Army facing off against a modern one. The Soviet T-34 and KV-1 tanks with their thick, sloped armor badly outmatched the Tianjin type 40 tank. Even the more modern Tianjin Type 42 tank could barely make a dent. Nowhere would this be more illustrated than in the Battle of Beiping - the largest tank battle in history.
The Tianjin Type 42 Tank was based on the Carro-Armato P40. It was pretty innovative in 1940.
The Battle of Beiping: The largest tank battle in history
Although the front was collapsing all around the line, NRA troops were disciplined and were retreating in an orderly fashion. It was clear that they could not stabilize a defence line in Manchurian so Chiang ordered the troops to retreat and hold a line streching from Beiping to Tianjin. But the rapidly advancing 5th Tank Army was about to cut off and loop around Beiping and race towards the sea - this would cut off the line of retreat for the troops. Cobbling together a series of reserve tank divisions and units near Nanking - General Du Yumming was ordered by Chiang to 'blunt' the spearhead of the attack and make it possible to prepare a defence. Although General Du's armored forces outnumbered the Soviets by more than 4 to 1 (4,200 vs 980) he was barely able to 'blunt' the attack and took horrific losses in doing so. The Type 40 tank (which were modified Belgian T-13 tank destroyers) was badly outmached by the more modern T-34s and the Type 42 tank were barely any better. Neither tank could effectively frontally penetrate the KV-1 and KV-2 tanks. Although the 5th Tank army was stopped General Du's army would only have 600 operational tanks to match General Grigori Shtern after the battle.
A cutaway of the BF 109F variant which the FR VIa2 was based on. This plane would create many Chinese aces during the war - but particularly during the "Red Skies" period.
Red skies over North China
Even though the Chinese Armies were badly outmatched in the front, the same would not hold for the air-war. Even though Soviet/Japanese/Manchurian airforces outnumbered the National Revolutionary Air Force by nearly 2-1 there was mimial coordination between the two and in an ironic twist the "Manchurian Volunteer Air Force" often accidentally attacked Japanese and Manchurian Air forces and vice versa. Furthermore, the FR VIa2s (licensed and modified BF 109Fs) were more than a match for the LaGGs and Yaks that were being used by the Soviet Air Force. But fundamentally - unlike armored combat - skill counted for far more in the air where a stray bullet could end your plane. The result of this minimal coordination, badly-trained Soviet air force and a battle-hardered National Revolutionary Air Force that had been in constant combat for nearly 6 years was scores of Chinese aces and lots of Soviet dead. This period of time was called the "Red skies" period after the number of dead Soviet and Japanese aviators (the Red Air force used red and the Japanese Air and Navy Air forces all used a red roundel). The NRAF's valiant defence meant that in the Northern Front - China was able to maintain limited aerial superiority and hamper the Soviet/Manchurian/Japanese offensives.
Stabilization
Although August Storm was a strategic success - it was a limited one with the bulk of NRA forces being able to escape with 6 million still standing strong. By the end of October, Chinese forces had stabilized a defensive line running from Beiping to Tianjin and the "Manchurian Volunteer Army" was strangely reluctant to advance beyond this point. Chiang had accepted the transparent and obvious fiction of the "Manchurian Volunteer Army" largely to avoid conflict with the Soviet Union and avoid opening a number of fronts. However - a front would soon be opened by the Entente in the 'soft-underbelly' of China.
OOC: Thanks for all the comments and feedback everyone. I really appreciate it. Going to be an update soon over this weekend. I'm sorry to be going at such a fast pace - but I want to go over the material and keep a sense of momentum going.