I really don't think that the Northern Expedition would start seven years early just because Jiang Jieshi went to military school in Germany. You need the Beiyang government to really screw up in a way that they didn't OTL - maybe they don't dismiss Cao Rulin and Lu Zongyu, and thus the May 4th Movement becomes explicitly anti-Beiyang instead of anti-Japanese. But you still also need the Guomindang to be much more with it than they were OTL at this time, and just the fact that Jiang is more of a badass isn't going to do it.
Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
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Thanks for that info - I might factor that in to the 2nd rewrite of the TL. Would that do the trick?
It would help, but the big problem is with the Guomindang. OTL, they barely existed in 1919. The party collapsed after the Second Revolution (an ill-fated attempt to topple Yuan Shikai) in 1914 (not sure about the year, but it was around then). Sun Zhongshan fled to Japan and the GMD pretty much ceased to exist for about five years - there was all sorts of factionalism. If I recall correctly, the party was re-established in 1919/1920 in Shanghai. So you see the problem - there's no way that they can take Beijing in 1919, because for all intents and purposes the Guomindang doesn't exist at this time. They needed several years - and aid from the USSR - before they could start functioning again.
If you really want them to take Beijing in 1919, you're going to have to change GMD internal politics a lot after the failure of the Second Revolution. I don't know . . . and that's not even getting into the fact that the GMD wouldn't necessarily benefit from the May 4th Movement. OTL it was more radical groups, like the CCP, that profited.
If you read closely it isn't the GMD that seizes Beijing. They are defeated in Shangdong province and the GMD eventually gets pushed back to Guangdong by a combination of Warlord and Japanese troops.
The GMD really just nails its colours to the broad mast to the May Fourth Movement - the only reason why Sun and Chiang were able to (nominally) lead the movement is Sun's prestige and Chiang's military expertise. The majority of the troops that take part in the 'Northern Expedition' are just idealistic students/ defecting warlord troops/ bored bandits with only 10,000 being GMD troops.
Thanks for your feedback though!
good timeline unfourtunatly I was going to do something like this only more centered on Japan being an allied power, though in retrospect this is way better than anything I could think of so good job
Thanks for the info! Could you share your sources about Chinese arsenals, aviation attempts and such life?
That would be really helpful - I'm quite reliant on the wiki.
Hendryk
Banned
The problem is that I only started to systematize and classify my sources recently--for years I just gathered what data was useful to me at a given moment without necessarily referencing it, so over time it has grown into a right mess. With aviation, in particular, I don't think I'll ever be able to trace my steps back to where I originally got every last bit of information. Then there's the fact that much of it is in French and some of the rest in Chinese. Basically, it looks like the source material for a doctorate thesis, only messier.
Now, since I just looked it up, I can tell you where I found the information about the arsenal in Guangzhou: it's from this website.
1925: China Takes Flight - The Third Year of Consolidation
Thanks to everyone for their kind feedback and comments!
1925: China Takes Flight - The Third Year of Consolidation
1925 was an auspicious year for the Kuomintang Government in South China. It was the year in which the "Official Investigative and Purchasing Commission" led by Feng Ru finally returned to China bringing with them trains, planes and factories. Feng Ru although only being tasked to to make a few purchases of aircraft and if possible - cheap licenses to obsolete planes - had bought with him a seed with which a viable military-industrial complex could be constructed.
Feng Ru's travelled to Europe through the Soviet Union and the Trans-Siberian line where he was given an enthusiastic reception by a fellow friendly 'revolutionary' government and treated as an ambassador of a friendly nation. However Feng Ru realized that the Soviet Union could not be of much help the Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily (Soviet Military Air Forces) while having a greater industrial base than China also lacked much in the way of qualified experts and experience. Feng Ru however was able to secure a Soviet promise of help in the form of advisors with experience industry and agricultural reform.
From the Soviet Union Feng Ru took a cruise ship to Germany. Feng Ru received an even more enthusiastic reception from the German government. The reasons for this enthusiastic reception were many among them were Chiang's status as a minor celebrity due to being a feature in a hit film directed by Hans Behrendt. Although the film Die unglaublichen Abenteuer von Chiang (The Amazing Adventures of Chiang) was heavilly imbellished and in some cases astoundingly inaccurate (Chiang was portrayed as a 6-foot half German, half-Chinese soldier with blue eyes) it was still highly popular and was a popular film among conservative circles this opened many doors for Feng Ru and he managed to secure substantial German help.
The first was in the area of aviation, although Germany had no air force it still had lots of trained engineers, industrialists and aviators with huge experience in the aviation industry. Although a portion of these had gone to the Soviet Union following the Treaty of Rapallo - China was thought to be a more attractive prospect. China was not ideologically hostile and Sino-German spheres of influence were quite different. China was also in the midst of warlordism and conflict meaning that any aircraft designed could be subjected to combat conditions. To this end a German Air Mission consisting of engineers, industrialists and pilots under the leadership of Gunther Pluschow was sent to China to aid the KMT government in the development of an air force. (Although ostensibly their official purpose was to aid in the development of crop dusters and other civil aviation infrastructure.)
The second was in the area of naval forces. Germany was facing a range of naval restrictions by the Treaty of Versailles including the submarine. It was believed that China could act as a 'testing ground' for new submarine types. It was also seen as a way for the existing naval expertise not to be lost. To this end a Naval Advisory Commission consisting of naval instructors, shipbuilders and engineers under the leadership of Wilhelm Canaris (who had served in the German East Asia Squadron) was dispatched.
The third was in the area of industy. Sino-German agreements were signed to help in the construction of railways and a cadre industrial advisors were sent to 'advice' in the construction of Chinese industry both civil and military.
The fourth was in the army. Although as substantial German aid had already been delivered in the previous years in the form of German advisors and German industrial advisors to the Guangzhou Arsenal there was frankly little room for improvement. Krupp promised to send more artillery advisors to help in the development of native Chinese artillery.
From Germany, Feng Ru proceeded to Italy where he was also warmly received. He successfully negotiated a small "Italian advisory commission" consisting of Italian industrialists, aviators, naval instructors and other military advisors.
After Italy Feng Ru spend the rest of his time in Europe in France and England. Although the various aircraft manufacturers wanted to do business and were eager to do so, the fact that Sun Yat Sen's government in southern China was not the 'official' government meant that French and English could be of little help. Feng Ru however did manage to purchase a plethora of obsolete World War I fighter planes such as the Nieuport 17. Feng ended up purchasing over 300 of other obsolete planes of various types.
1925 was the year that these various advisors and material purchased from various countries began to arrive in substantial numbers. 1925 was the year that the seed for an organized and vast Chinese military-industrial complex was sown. 1925 as Feng Ru was found of saying would be the year that "China takes flight"
Comments and feedback welcome as always (please?)
1925: China Takes Flight - The Third Year of Consolidation
1925 was an auspicious year for the Kuomintang Government in South China. It was the year in which the "Official Investigative and Purchasing Commission" led by Feng Ru finally returned to China bringing with them trains, planes and factories. Feng Ru although only being tasked to to make a few purchases of aircraft and if possible - cheap licenses to obsolete planes - had bought with him a seed with which a viable military-industrial complex could be constructed.
Feng Ru's travelled to Europe through the Soviet Union and the Trans-Siberian line where he was given an enthusiastic reception by a fellow friendly 'revolutionary' government and treated as an ambassador of a friendly nation. However Feng Ru realized that the Soviet Union could not be of much help the Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily (Soviet Military Air Forces) while having a greater industrial base than China also lacked much in the way of qualified experts and experience. Feng Ru however was able to secure a Soviet promise of help in the form of advisors with experience industry and agricultural reform.
From the Soviet Union Feng Ru took a cruise ship to Germany. Feng Ru received an even more enthusiastic reception from the German government. The reasons for this enthusiastic reception were many among them were Chiang's status as a minor celebrity due to being a feature in a hit film directed by Hans Behrendt. Although the film Die unglaublichen Abenteuer von Chiang (The Amazing Adventures of Chiang) was heavilly imbellished and in some cases astoundingly inaccurate (Chiang was portrayed as a 6-foot half German, half-Chinese soldier with blue eyes) it was still highly popular and was a popular film among conservative circles this opened many doors for Feng Ru and he managed to secure substantial German help.
The first was in the area of aviation, although Germany had no air force it still had lots of trained engineers, industrialists and aviators with huge experience in the aviation industry. Although a portion of these had gone to the Soviet Union following the Treaty of Rapallo - China was thought to be a more attractive prospect. China was not ideologically hostile and Sino-German spheres of influence were quite different. China was also in the midst of warlordism and conflict meaning that any aircraft designed could be subjected to combat conditions. To this end a German Air Mission consisting of engineers, industrialists and pilots under the leadership of Gunther Pluschow was sent to China to aid the KMT government in the development of an air force. (Although ostensibly their official purpose was to aid in the development of crop dusters and other civil aviation infrastructure.)
The second was in the area of naval forces. Germany was facing a range of naval restrictions by the Treaty of Versailles including the submarine. It was believed that China could act as a 'testing ground' for new submarine types. It was also seen as a way for the existing naval expertise not to be lost. To this end a Naval Advisory Commission consisting of naval instructors, shipbuilders and engineers under the leadership of Wilhelm Canaris (who had served in the German East Asia Squadron) was dispatched.
The third was in the area of industy. Sino-German agreements were signed to help in the construction of railways and a cadre industrial advisors were sent to 'advice' in the construction of Chinese industry both civil and military.
The fourth was in the army. Although as substantial German aid had already been delivered in the previous years in the form of German advisors and German industrial advisors to the Guangzhou Arsenal there was frankly little room for improvement. Krupp promised to send more artillery advisors to help in the development of native Chinese artillery.
From Germany, Feng Ru proceeded to Italy where he was also warmly received. He successfully negotiated a small "Italian advisory commission" consisting of Italian industrialists, aviators, naval instructors and other military advisors.
After Italy Feng Ru spend the rest of his time in Europe in France and England. Although the various aircraft manufacturers wanted to do business and were eager to do so, the fact that Sun Yat Sen's government in southern China was not the 'official' government meant that French and English could be of little help. Feng Ru however did manage to purchase a plethora of obsolete World War I fighter planes such as the Nieuport 17. Feng ended up purchasing over 300 of other obsolete planes of various types.
1925 was the year that these various advisors and material purchased from various countries began to arrive in substantial numbers. 1925 was the year that the seed for an organized and vast Chinese military-industrial complex was sown. 1925 as Feng Ru was found of saying would be the year that "China takes flight"
Comments and feedback welcome as always (please?)
Very good. Have developments in Germany significantly diverged from OTL or are they the same?
Paul MacQ
Donor
Congrats seems you have done some good research here. has to say Wilhelm Canaris is a most interesting advisor for Naval support.
Can see him helping out in building a Inteligence group as well. He was involved in that in WW1 not just his OTL Abwehr adventures.
Is liking allot and well done
Can see him helping out in building a Inteligence group as well. He was involved in that in WW1 not just his OTL Abwehr adventures.
Is liking allot and well done
I'm found your TL and read all... and is Amazing, with the fact of Chiang going to Germany and learn Knowledge both theorical and practical about warfare and their demand, and make him Hitler's Brother in Arms(remembre Hitler always move by passion no logic and for that a better chance of being a main member of the Axis) and how make the change are incredible, i want to see how this develpomt.
and talking about that, 1925 is the year when Sun Yat Sen's die and left Chiang like the leader of the GMD(before the division between ideologies), and again the Soviets are no trustable(if they saw a more aproach of chang when Hitler obtain the Kanzler in 1933 they will give full suport to Mao & cia) and you have the colonialist treat of the Japanesse with their puppet of Puyi in the north. but if you(Chiang) found the way to defeat all the main theat for 1936(Rheinland remilitaritazion) or before... China will become a Titan very dificult to stop and if you wait to the fall of france and make Chang ally with Ho Ching Ming in a Nationalist way rather communist for freed Vietnam and keep India Quiet but under theat, Barbarossa will mean the end of the Soviet Union(having to face a titanic two front war is the reason of both German defeat
) and about USA... you people think having no PH and no way to attack to philpines(i'm realistc any kind of navy make by China will be mainly Brown Water because the IJN) and the war being mainly revachist and colonialist( by the libereation of Vietnam and the history of china pre bellum) i think isolationism will be a big issue(mainly in asia, in Europe... depend of Britain Propaganda)
A lot of possibilites with a china with (Nazi) Germany cooperation and exchange(both civil and militart) exist, maybe Chiang will notice the 'extremly'(aka the big mistheatment of the jews and another European minority) chage of Hitler ideas and personality to make a more open mind(like a China version of Fugu plan??)
well a lot of possibilites exist, now i want to see how do you make that posible
att
Nivek
and talking about that, 1925 is the year when Sun Yat Sen's die and left Chiang like the leader of the GMD(before the division between ideologies), and again the Soviets are no trustable(if they saw a more aproach of chang when Hitler obtain the Kanzler in 1933 they will give full suport to Mao & cia) and you have the colonialist treat of the Japanesse with their puppet of Puyi in the north. but if you(Chiang) found the way to defeat all the main theat for 1936(Rheinland remilitaritazion) or before... China will become a Titan very dificult to stop and if you wait to the fall of france and make Chang ally with Ho Ching Ming in a Nationalist way rather communist for freed Vietnam and keep India Quiet but under theat, Barbarossa will mean the end of the Soviet Union(having to face a titanic two front war is the reason of both German defeat
) and about USA... you people think having no PH and no way to attack to philpines(i'm realistc any kind of navy make by China will be mainly Brown Water because the IJN) and the war being mainly revachist and colonialist( by the libereation of Vietnam and the history of china pre bellum) i think isolationism will be a big issue(mainly in asia, in Europe... depend of Britain Propaganda)A lot of possibilites with a china with (Nazi) Germany cooperation and exchange(both civil and militart) exist, maybe Chiang will notice the 'extremly'(aka the big mistheatment of the jews and another European minority) chage of Hitler ideas and personality to make a more open mind(like a China version of Fugu plan??)
well a lot of possibilites exist, now i want to see how do you make that posible
att
Nivek
Hendryk
Banned
I see you've put Feng Ru to good use too. And right you are, it's a pity that in OTL he died in that plane crash in 1912 just as things were getting interesting.
If I may offer a small nitpick, it's somewhat jarring to see you refer to Jiang Jieshi as Chiang when all the other Chinese names in your TL (Feng Ru's included) are in Pinyin.
If I may offer a small nitpick, it's somewhat jarring to see you refer to Jiang Jieshi as Chiang when all the other Chinese names in your TL (Feng Ru's included) are in Pinyin.
One small suggestion: Can Germany use the seas off China as a testing ground for a proper surface fleet? Submarines are cool and all that but one should not forget about the steel behemoths that float on the surface of the sea. Especially the aircraft carriers and battleships...
Paul MacQ
Donor
Well infrastructure My estimate if getting small coastal Sub industry within 6-7 years is pushing things. a Battleship would coast about 3-4 years GDP for this Southern China. They really are the province of the bigger players after WW1 world economy was just shot to pieces in a war