Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline

KMT Question

Do the Chinese have German, Soviet and American advisers and or German and Soviet personel fighting alongside them vs. the Entente in China?

In OTL, the Soviets sent thousands of "volunteers" to fight for China as well as a lot of weapons and equpment. The Germans had thousands of advisders before they were withdrawn in early 1938.

I would reckon the Germans have a bigger presence in China in this timeline and General Falkenhausen and other German generals are probably advising Chang on strategy and probalby German volunteer airmen in China.

Same for the Soviets, Soviets in OTL had Chuikov and even Zhukov as military advisers to Chang. Not surprised if the Soviets sent these guys as advisers to probably spy on the Germans and Chinese capabilities. Also not surprised the Soviets are sending lots of military aid to the Chinese.
 
Yah also agree while no CCP split, Chang still distrusts the CCP so they are given divisional command at most, maybe put one up as a corps command as a show to appease the CCP.

If the CCP never endeavoured to have their own military force, Chiang might just be a tad more trusting of them - he was able to work with them IOTL in the Whampoa days, so it's possible.

I'd say Zhu De and Peng Dehuai gets an army each at the most, and some of the other guys get division- and corps-level commands.

True Tang En Po not so good however he is very loyal to Chiang and part of his Central Army faction. So not surprised if he gets a higher post. Same with Chen Cheng.

Like I said, Tang Enbo was okay in the early days of the war IOTL, but while garrisoning in Henan, his forces were almost like bandits (not that I can blame them too much - food and other supplies was always a problem for the NRA during the war IOTL). So either a garrison command somewhere or a field army at most.

the best KMT generals seem to be the ones of other opposing KMT factions like Xue Yue, Sun Li Jen etc.

Xue Yue once opposed Chiang, but the two later reconciled and he was given important commands in the Encirclement Campaigns, Long March, and later the Second Sino-Japanese War. Sun was too junior to be of any impact during the war, and Chiang Ching-kuo didn't start giving him trouble until the ROC government relocated to Taiwan, so they weren't opposing Chiang, at least not during the war.

Also, both Xue and Sun could be counted as part of the Central Forces clique, only without the Whampoa background. Xue Yue came over from the Canton Army after Chiang ousted Xu Chongzhi, I think; Sun went to VMI (as we know) and later joined the Tax Police brigade (which, while not officially part of the NRA, was counted among the OTL German-equipped divisions in the 30s).

Wonder what happened to Yan Xi Shan of the Shanxi faction, in OTL he was one of the strongest KMT leaders controlling his own set of provinces in Central China right even during the war.

IOTL he ran Shanxi as his personal fiefdom and was content at that. I don't think he ever tried for supreme power after the Central Plains War.

Do the Chinese have German, Soviet and American advisers and or German and Soviet personel fighting alongside them vs. the Entente in China?

I would assume there'd be a lot more German advisers in the NRA ITTL, given the closer relationship between Germany and China, and definitely a lot more German-trained AND equipped divisions than the five OTL (36th, 87th, 88th, and Training Divisions, as well as Tax Police Brigade)

In OTL, the Soviets sent thousands of "volunteers" to fight for China as well as a lot of weapons and equpment. The Germans had thousands of advisders before they were withdrawn in early 1938.

Ideologically, without the violent KMT-CCP split it'd be easier for both parties to stomach a Sino-Soviet pact of sorts, given that Stalin needed China to distract Japan so that Russian Far East would be secure

I would reckon the Germans have a bigger presence in China in this timeline and General Falkenhausen and other German generals are probably advising Chang on strategy and probalby German volunteer airmen in China.

Same for the Soviets, Soviets in OTL had Chuikov and even Zhukov as military advisers to Chang. Not surprised if the Soviets sent these guys as advisers to probably spy on the Germans and Chinese capabilities. Also not surprised the Soviets are sending lots of military aid to the Chinese.

German volunteers are unlikely once fighting started in the Western Front. They'll need every man available to breach the Anglo-French lines there. The Soviets, on the other hand, could "lend-lease" some of the surplus equipment to China. You might see several corps armed solely with Russian weapons.

Marc A
 
1942: Unlikely bedfellows in Persia
1942: Unlikely bedfellows in Persia

The completion of the "Iron Line" across Turkey-Persia-Afghanistan- China in mid 1941 was the culmination of the worst fear of the Entente powers, China and her German ally being able to link hands from across the world and work together closely. It is unclear at this point however, how much the Entente saw the Iron Line as a legitimate threat or how much of it was hyped up as propaganda to justify cooperation with an ideological enemy (the Soviet Union) and a hostile military invasion of an officially neutral country.

Even prior to that, with the continued frosting of German-Soviet relations, unofficial talks had already begun. It was always Stalin's intention to sweep into the Second Great War after the forces of the Entente and Axis had fought themselves to mutual exhaustion, however, with the defeats of the Entente in 1941, the war looked to be tilting towards the favour of Axis. Stalin's response was twofold. The first was to step up the number of 'border incidents' around the Polish-Soviet Border, not with the intention of provoking full scale conflict, but to force Axis Germany to keep large contingents of troops near the border. The second was to pursue a policy of "Self-interested Co-Belligerence" with the Entente. The Soviet policy would not be to seek an alliance, but find areas of common ground and cooperation with the Entente powers. Secret talks were initiated between London and Moscow about the 'inconvenience' of having China and Germany united through a rail network (these talks tactfully ignored the fact that the Soviet Union did nothing to prevent these networks from being constructed in the first place when they had the opportunity.) The talks were successful and a joint military offensive "Operation Countenance" was agreed to. Operation Countenance was a military invasion of Persia with forces between the Entente and the Soviet Union where they agreed to stage an invasion of Persia with the primary objective of cutting off the Iron Line but with the secondary objectives of plundering Persia.

Persia had been drifting towards the Axis powers, with the Shah unilaterally nationalizing the oil fields in late 1941. A contingent of German and Chinese military advisors were already present and training the Persian military. German engineers and advisors were also at hand to support the recently renationalized oil fields. A secret guarantee had also been provided to King Reza Shah Pahlavi that Chinese and German forces would provide assistance in the event that Persia's territorial sovereignty was 'violated by any power.'

Iranian_Warship_Babr.jpg


Iranian warship Babr destroyed at port. A common scene in the early days of Operation Countenance. (1)

The above was purely academic to the people of Persia on the 21st of March 1942 as bombs fell on palace district and all over Tehran and as Soviet and Entente troops fell upon Persia as Persians celebrated Nowruz (the Persian New Year.) King Reza was killed, along with many innocent Persians. The small Persian navy was also destroyed at harbour and the air force was gutted by surprise bombings. The Persian army fought bravely but was overwhelmed by the superior forces that the Entente had amassed from the South and that the Soviets had amassed from the North. Initial Persian resistance was hampered by difficulties in the chain of command with the King dead and the crown prince Mohammed Reza Pahvali taking time to recover from his injuries and resume the throne.

Soviet_troops_are_crossing_the_border_with_Iran.jpg


Soviet troops crossing the border on 21 March 1942. The Soviet use of trucks and other motorized transport was key to the success of the invasion.

The invasion was widely regarded as a surprise. There was no declaration of war and no expectation that the invasion, which was predicted to happen, would come so suddenly. The Persian military was only partially mobilized, with many reservists on holiday due Norwuz being a national day of celebration. Although Germany had begun forming the nuclei of a expeditionary force with the 2nd Mountain Division being transferred to the Turkish-Persian border, preparations were only about halfway complete with the division at half strength at the time of the invasion. China's Western Army Group had also been stripped of a lot of troops and was thinly stretched across a broad front and was only able to send a division of second-rate NRA troops to try and assist. The Axis troops were also hindered by awkward rules of engagement. They were only authorized to fight Entente troops and not Soviet troops and were thus deployed to the South to fight Entente troops. The 100 or so aircraft deployed in support of the Axis efforts were also not allowed to shoot down Soviet planes that were bombing or attacking the troops there. Stalin showed no such restraint, he knew he had the upper hand and that the Axis did not want to escalate a shooting match at this point.

The outcome of the conflict should not be a surprise. Despite fanatical Persian resistance which continued well into the occupation, organized military resistance ceased by the end of May with the remnants of the Persian Royal Army and Axis expeditionary forces dissolving into the countryside and mountains to continue guerrilla resistance - led by the Crown Prince Mohammad Pahlavi who had elected to stay in the country rather than attempt to flee into exile. By the end of the organized resistance, it is estimated that about 1000 of 5,000 strong 2nd Mountain Division that Germany had sent remained in the country, along with 2,000 NRA troops. These troops were trapped and continued fighting with the Persian Resistance and were led by Chiang Wei-kuo, who had been deployed with the 2nd Division. They, along with the prince and his resistance army prayed for salvation. It would take a long time for their prayers to be answered.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_invasion_of_Iran#/media/File:Iranian_Warship_Babr.jpg
(2) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._troops_are_crossing_the_border_with_Iran.jpg
 
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Oh wow, one random necro bump after nearly 10 months of inaction and the TL quickly sprang back to life. We should bump more often so CCA can get his lazy arse off the sofa. :)
 
ITS' ALIVE, IT'S ALIVE.

When you are rottinn the nazis, you knew what a world it is...

Amazing update, so will wait till negotiation to save persia/iran? this war have been brutal and so grey, nice so far buddy.

Seems like they are the 'Burma' of this timeline.


By the way,why is France still standing?What led to the French being able to withstand the Germans more readily this time?Shouldn't the Germans also be a lot more stronger with China as their massive commercial partner and testing ground?Another thing is why isn't Italy a complete joke?The Italians actually look alright in this timeline.
 
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Seems like they are the 'Burma' of this timeline.


By the way,why is France still standing?What led to the French being able to withstand the Germans more readily this time?Shouldn't the Germans also be a lot more stronger with China as their massive commercial partner and testing ground?Another thing is why isn't Italy a complete joke?The Italians actually look alright in this timeline.

The war against China much earlier means that the Entente economies were on a war footing slightly earlier and got to learn important lessons. France falling IOTL was a damn near run thing, and here, even with the Germans having more advantages, the Entente does too. The lack of a Molotov-Ribentropp agreeement in this timeline means that Germany has to always keep the possibility of a two-front war in her mind and deploy troops accordingly.

The Italians aren't a complete joke largely because German diplomatic efforts mean that the Greek army is thinly streched. Even with massive German help, they take about a year to break Greece and it ends up costing them a lot of lives and men.
 
ITS' ALIVE, IT'S ALIVE.

When you are rottinn the nazis, you knew what a world it is...

Amazing update, so will wait till negotiation to save persia/iran? this war have been brutal and so grey, nice so far buddy.

It is alive! Well yeah, but keep in mind that the Nazis have literally built a train line and used so much slave labour that it was literally called the "Blood line."

But yeah, people forget that in World War 2, the allies did some pretty shitty things (this update was easy to write because it literally happened in real life), but because the Axis were so bad, we were prepared to whitewash the things that our guys did in the name of the greater good.

What is dead my never die!

I love how this TL is embracing grey vs grey. It's making this such a great read.

Now off to reread it :D

But rises again harder and stronger! Thanks for your support

Welcome back CCA!

Thanks! Great to be back and writing again. I'm actually visiting the Republic of China in real life in a few months which provided big inspiration for getting back to it.

Oh wow, one random necro bump after nearly 10 months of inaction and the TL quickly sprang back to life. We should bump more often so CCA can get his lazy arse off the sofa. :)

Haha totally :p But as I wrote above, me going to the Republic of China soon was a big catalyst. Ideally, I'd like to have this TL finished before I go there so I can have inspiration for rewrites and/or a sequel after I return.
 
The war against China much earlier means that the Entente economies were on a war footing slightly earlier and got to learn important lessons. France falling IOTL was a damn near run thing, and here, even with the Germans having more advantages, the Entente does too. The lack of a Molotov-Ribentropp agreeement in this timeline means that Germany has to always keep the possibility of a two-front war in her mind and deploy troops accordingly.

The Italians aren't a complete joke largely because German diplomatic efforts mean that the Greek army is thinly streched. Even with massive German help, they take about a year to break Greece and it ends up costing them a lot of lives and men.
So basically,apart from the navy,the Italian military is still a joke,but they have yet to show their comedy because the British and French are either too overstretched to deal with them or they are just lucky?Or is it because increased trade with China meant that the Italians are wealthier and technologically more superior than OTL because of the money they get from Chinese purchases as well as the incentive to develop better weapons to export to China--leading to a better financed and technologically superior army and air force?

With Poland still there and having signed a non-aggression pact,is there actually any need to keep troops at the eastern front?

So another POD in this timeline is that because the war with France wasn't as short as OTL,victory disease didn't get to Hitler's head?
 
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So basically,apart from the navy,the Italian military is still a joke,but they have yet to show their comedy because the British and French are either too overstretched to deal with them or they are just lucky?Or is it because increased trade with China meant that the Italians are wealthier and technologically more superior than OTL because of the money they get from Chinese purchases as well as the incentive to develop better weapons to export to China--leading to a better financed and technologically superior army and air force?

With Poland still there and having signed a non-aggression pact,is there actually any need to keep troops at the eastern front?

With Italy, it's a combination of all those factors. They are slightly ahead where they were IOTL in terms of rearnament, but they still have shitty leadership with competent people like Balbo being frozen out.

Yes, Poland has a defensive alliance with Germany *but* the Soviet Union is threatening Germany's Eastern flank. Germany is desperate to avoid a two front-war to the extent where the expeditionary force in Persia was given strict orders not to shoot back at Soviet troops or planes that were strafing them under any circumstances.

And to answer your edited in questions, yes. Germany hasn't really won any crushing victories ITTL other than in the Balkans so Hitler is more willing to take outside advice. His friendship with Chiang also means he's slightly less insane and less of a racial fanatic, which has implications for things like Nazi attitudes towards "Jewish physics"
 
1942: The Entente Strikes Back - A brief synposis of the Desert War
1942: The Entente Strikes Back - A brief synposis of the Desert War

"Amateurs talk tactics. Armchair general study strategy but the victors study logistics."
- Military proverb

After the triumph of the Axis in the Balkan theatre, the Entente needed a victory to assure a jittery public at home that the war was not lost. They needed to pick a theatre where there was an isolated Axis position and
slowly but surely squeeze it until a victory was assured. The obvious target was Italian Libya, squeezed as it was between French Algeria and English Egypt.

MatildaII.jpg

The Entente put together a competent, well-equipped and highly motivated modern force in the joint invasion of Egypt. (1)

Smarting from the Greek defeat, the Entente conceived the imaginatively titled Operation Vengeance as a joint operation between French and English high command to take Libya. Troops which had been evacuated from Greece and even some Greek troops were to take part in the operation. Overall, the Entente had 400,000 troops poised to invade Egypt by early late March 1942. Many of these troops were battle-hardened, refreshed from 2 months of refitting and resting and thirsty for vengeance, particularly the 40,000 "Free Greek" troops that had successfully been evacuated from Greece and later, Crete.

CamelSpahisinItalianLibya.jpg


Italian troops remaining in Libya were a mixture of native troops, blackshirt militias and other second and third-rate troops.

Against this, Libyan Governor Italo Balbo had a meagre 100,000 troops left, after having the bulk of his soldiers and equipment stripped to fight in the Balkan theatre. These soldiers were 2nd and 3rd rate troops that did a fine enough job of crushing any local insurgencies but would struggle against any modern army. Part of the reason he had not gotten reinforcements was politics, the paranoid Mussolini wanted to deny Balbo his share of glory - but part of it was genuine logistical difficulties. The Entente had redeployed a large part of their naval assets from the Chinese front to the Mediterranean, following the disaster at Taranto a year before. Although the capture of Malta and later Crete were useful to the Axis, it did not change the fact that the combined Franco-British navy was bigger by close to 2.5:1 to the Regio Marina.

"Balbo fought valiantly. Balbo fought nobly. Balbo fought honourably. And Balbo died."
- Italian propaganda broadcast after the fall of Tripoli

Balbo gave them Entente a tough fight. But with no reinforcements forthcoming, fighting against two fronts and with ill-equipped and demoralized troops - the struggle was ultimately futile. Balbo went down with his province, fighting house to house as Tripoli fell. By the May 22, the invasion of Libya was over and the "Balkan Tragedy" had been avenged at the cost of less than 20,000 casualties for the Entente. This success, combined with the victory in Persia and continued stagnation of the Western Front swung the momentum back towards the Entente.


(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_Campaign#/media/File:MatildaII.jpg

(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Libya#/media/File:CamelSpahisinItalianLibya.jpg
 
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