Doesn't that just mean that you did not vote? Since no changes really happened
Not really a TL that might have gotten no votes or just low votes gets at least 1.
Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
- Thread starter CCA
- Start date
Not really a TL that might have gotten no votes or just low votes gets at least 1.
SACO Re-Examined: Sino-American Intelligence Cooperation During The Second Great War
Yu Shen was sweating, partly in excitement and partly in exertion. He was excited and elated about his thesis - it had been a long and exhausting trip to China. It has also been a difficult one, meeting in dark corners of already dim-lit bars. Sleeping on bare floors and having to endure pain and discomfort living the life of a covert intelligence gatherer. But it was worth it, his thesis would be the entry into the comfy world of tenured academia (Yu Shen was only 21 and somewhat naive to the ways of academia.) He was sweating in extertion because he was climbing some really steep steps, but you know at least he got the flat for cheap. Turning his somewhat rusty key in he entered his studio room which he shared with his girlfriend Hanne.
After getting a drink of water and checking up on his favourite site the METAHISTORY Discussion Boards he settled down and began to re-work the drafts he had done.
The Sino-American Cooperative Organization (SACO), headed by Cdr. Milton Miles of the US Navy and Bureau Chief Dai Li, the head of the "Census Bureau" which was in essence the primary Chinese Secret Police and intelligence gathering-operation. This article examines the history of SACO as a wartime institution during the war and some aspects of its politicized legacy throughout the Post-War Era.
"It is very difficult to describe historically what SACO really was after more than half a century of deliberate distortion and cover-up. SACO still exists to many, especially in the unfree and half-free worlds as an urban myth, a historical artifice constructed to cause a split in Sino-German relations. Despite this, the tales and actions of the brave men and women who worked in this obscure unit have been popularized through the pulp presses and in the movie theatres of the free world. The heroic adventures of the SACO unit have been distilled particularly well in the hit movie series featuring half-British, half-American heroine Joane Bond... Perhaps the popularity and integration of the SACO unit into Western pop culture has in fact been counter-productive in the acceptance of SACO as a real organization in many scholars of the Third Reich and the Third Republic..."
"...Faced with the suppression of so much crucial information and the gagging of many of it's key operatives, accomplishing this article was quite a difficult task. Nonetheless, I have been able to compile credible information from key people within SACO on the condition of total anonymity and to gleam out crucial information about it's existence, it's goals and what SACO actually did - divorced from the fictionalized version of this unit..."
"...SACO's official directive was to pursue a policy of limited intelligence integration between America and China and to help procure armaments and other crucial war materiel so that China could fight Japan more effectively. Toward that end, America would covertly act as the middleman for Chinese and German trade - creating dummy American corporations to carry out trade. American ships would carry Chinese tungsten and other rare metals to Hamburg and they would come back laden with German high-grade steel and Luftwaffe planes. Officially, all America wanted was a cut of the profits - a surcharge on each transaction - all in all, in true American fashion all America wanted to do was to secure a tidy sum in return for guaranteeing the life-blood of trade..."
"...However, SACO's story was more complicated than what this conventional, but still clandestine arrangement suggests. Unofficially, what the Americans wanted was a blind eye - and even occasional assistance of their endavours. The Americans ensured that SACO would become a conduit for one of the world's largest spy ring in both scale and in the audacity of it's operations. It would penetrate the German intelligence network and German High Command so thoroughly and so efficiently that FDR could get access to the confidential Fuhrer Reports just a day after Hitler had read them."
"Who were the brave men - and women who led the SACO unit? The titular head of the Chinese end of SACO - Bureau Chief Dai Li needs no further mention with the reams of biographies, articles and other biographies of this fascinating character. His role and the role of his Chinese compatriots was to cover up the existence of this unit, he did this rather easily by enforcing a ruthless policy of killing any Chinese person who found out about the unit without due authorization. He was seemingly brutally effective at this with not even his boss, Chiang Kai-shek knowing of the full extend of SACO's clandestine activities. On the American end, Cdr. Niles was in charge of managing a far-reaching intelligence network..."
"One of the most famous spy rings is also the one that still to a large extend eludes attempts to find out basic facts and information. The Hogan-Klink spy ring was one of the most deeply embedded in Germany - it was through this spy ring which the most confidential top level information available to only Hitler and his inner circles were passed through. This author has had access to several anonymous sources who have described "Hogan" as being a German-American who bears more than a passing resemblance to Colonel Robert Hogan, the American Army Air Force Liaison officer based in Berlin. Hogan's contact in the Fuhrer's inner circles was one "Colonel Klink" - this author has been unable to ascertain who the real identity of this individual was, perhaps a wise thing given the authoritarian conditions that still prevail in the Reich today. But there are rumours swirling around that this individual was a top aide in the Luftwaffe and possibly an aide to Reichsmarshall Goering - some sources argue that he was a German Jew who was disgruntled with the forced exile of many Jews to China..."
"...It was previously thought that this was the full extent of the activities of the SACO unit. However, this author has been able to uncover new leads that reveal previously secret information about the activities of the Chinese end of the SACO unit..."
Yu heard the door opening but ignored it, so engrossed in the work.
"The activities of the Chinese SACO unit (henceforth refered to as CSACO for convenience) included such mundane things such as funding the Chinese-American friendship society to slightly dodgy things such as laundering money through some Chinese-Americans to make donations to several campaigns in 1940, most notably that of the Roosevelt Re-election campaign... Perhaps most controversial is the evidence of nuclear espionage in the American Atom Bomb project..."
Yu didn't notice the shadow besides him until it was far too late.
The shadow engulfed him in it's soft and warm embrace:
"Honey! You're back!" cried Hanne Ling as she kissed Yu.
Yu broke into a huge smile after Hanne released him.
"Hmm... Yes. I've missed you so much... You know what we need to catch up on..."
"Oh, what's that?" Hanne said mock-beatifically fluttering her eyes for effect.
Yu lunged for a kiss. But Hanne broke it.
"Brush your teeth first lover boy."
Yu had never been so excited to brush his teeth. Hanne had always loved it when they kissed with his breath fresh from mint or toothpaste, Yu suspected that she had some sort of strange fetish, but it wasn't really that weird so he didn't really care all that much.
When he came out of the bathroom he found Hanne sitting at the laptop with a sad look on her face.
"Is everything OK?"
"Yeah I'm fine... Have you shown anyone else your draft?"
"Nah, you're the first to see it!" Yu said breaking into a grin of pride and happiness.
"That's fortunate then."
Darkness took Yu.
After getting a drink of water and checking up on his favourite site the METAHISTORY Discussion Boards he settled down and began to re-work the drafts he had done.
SACO Re-Examined:
Sino-American Intelligence Cooperation
During The Second Great War
Sino-American Intelligence Cooperation
During The Second Great War
The Sino-American Cooperative Organization (SACO), headed by Cdr. Milton Miles of the US Navy and Bureau Chief Dai Li, the head of the "Census Bureau" which was in essence the primary Chinese Secret Police and intelligence gathering-operation. This article examines the history of SACO as a wartime institution during the war and some aspects of its politicized legacy throughout the Post-War Era.
"It is very difficult to describe historically what SACO really was after more than half a century of deliberate distortion and cover-up. SACO still exists to many, especially in the unfree and half-free worlds as an urban myth, a historical artifice constructed to cause a split in Sino-German relations. Despite this, the tales and actions of the brave men and women who worked in this obscure unit have been popularized through the pulp presses and in the movie theatres of the free world. The heroic adventures of the SACO unit have been distilled particularly well in the hit movie series featuring half-British, half-American heroine Joane Bond... Perhaps the popularity and integration of the SACO unit into Western pop culture has in fact been counter-productive in the acceptance of SACO as a real organization in many scholars of the Third Reich and the Third Republic..."
"...Faced with the suppression of so much crucial information and the gagging of many of it's key operatives, accomplishing this article was quite a difficult task. Nonetheless, I have been able to compile credible information from key people within SACO on the condition of total anonymity and to gleam out crucial information about it's existence, it's goals and what SACO actually did - divorced from the fictionalized version of this unit..."
"...SACO's official directive was to pursue a policy of limited intelligence integration between America and China and to help procure armaments and other crucial war materiel so that China could fight Japan more effectively. Toward that end, America would covertly act as the middleman for Chinese and German trade - creating dummy American corporations to carry out trade. American ships would carry Chinese tungsten and other rare metals to Hamburg and they would come back laden with German high-grade steel and Luftwaffe planes. Officially, all America wanted was a cut of the profits - a surcharge on each transaction - all in all, in true American fashion all America wanted to do was to secure a tidy sum in return for guaranteeing the life-blood of trade..."
"...However, SACO's story was more complicated than what this conventional, but still clandestine arrangement suggests. Unofficially, what the Americans wanted was a blind eye - and even occasional assistance of their endavours. The Americans ensured that SACO would become a conduit for one of the world's largest spy ring in both scale and in the audacity of it's operations. It would penetrate the German intelligence network and German High Command so thoroughly and so efficiently that FDR could get access to the confidential Fuhrer Reports just a day after Hitler had read them."
"Who were the brave men - and women who led the SACO unit? The titular head of the Chinese end of SACO - Bureau Chief Dai Li needs no further mention with the reams of biographies, articles and other biographies of this fascinating character. His role and the role of his Chinese compatriots was to cover up the existence of this unit, he did this rather easily by enforcing a ruthless policy of killing any Chinese person who found out about the unit without due authorization. He was seemingly brutally effective at this with not even his boss, Chiang Kai-shek knowing of the full extend of SACO's clandestine activities. On the American end, Cdr. Niles was in charge of managing a far-reaching intelligence network..."
"One of the most famous spy rings is also the one that still to a large extend eludes attempts to find out basic facts and information. The Hogan-Klink spy ring was one of the most deeply embedded in Germany - it was through this spy ring which the most confidential top level information available to only Hitler and his inner circles were passed through. This author has had access to several anonymous sources who have described "Hogan" as being a German-American who bears more than a passing resemblance to Colonel Robert Hogan, the American Army Air Force Liaison officer based in Berlin. Hogan's contact in the Fuhrer's inner circles was one "Colonel Klink" - this author has been unable to ascertain who the real identity of this individual was, perhaps a wise thing given the authoritarian conditions that still prevail in the Reich today. But there are rumours swirling around that this individual was a top aide in the Luftwaffe and possibly an aide to Reichsmarshall Goering - some sources argue that he was a German Jew who was disgruntled with the forced exile of many Jews to China..."
"...It was previously thought that this was the full extent of the activities of the SACO unit. However, this author has been able to uncover new leads that reveal previously secret information about the activities of the Chinese end of the SACO unit..."
Yu heard the door opening but ignored it, so engrossed in the work.
"The activities of the Chinese SACO unit (henceforth refered to as CSACO for convenience) included such mundane things such as funding the Chinese-American friendship society to slightly dodgy things such as laundering money through some Chinese-Americans to make donations to several campaigns in 1940, most notably that of the Roosevelt Re-election campaign... Perhaps most controversial is the evidence of nuclear espionage in the American Atom Bomb project..."
Yu didn't notice the shadow besides him until it was far too late.
The shadow engulfed him in it's soft and warm embrace:
"Honey! You're back!" cried Hanne Ling as she kissed Yu.
Yu broke into a huge smile after Hanne released him.
"Hmm... Yes. I've missed you so much... You know what we need to catch up on..."
"Oh, what's that?" Hanne said mock-beatifically fluttering her eyes for effect.
Yu lunged for a kiss. But Hanne broke it.
"Brush your teeth first lover boy."
Yu had never been so excited to brush his teeth. Hanne had always loved it when they kissed with his breath fresh from mint or toothpaste, Yu suspected that she had some sort of strange fetish, but it wasn't really that weird so he didn't really care all that much.
When he came out of the bathroom he found Hanne sitting at the laptop with a sad look on her face.
"Is everything OK?"
"Yeah I'm fine... Have you shown anyone else your draft?"
"Nah, you're the first to see it!" Yu said breaking into a grin of pride and happiness.
"That's fortunate then."
Darkness took Yu.
wait, did he just die or was he knocked out?
And America is playing both ways....hmmm....
And America is playing both ways....hmmm....
Is the first example of blatant confirmation that the Third Reich still exists in the modern day?
Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but I think it was only hinted at before this update.
Seeing how this WW2 plays out is going to be extra interesting.
--------------
And poor Yu Shen . . . Falling victim to a honey trap.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but I think it was only hinted at before this update.
Seeing how this WW2 plays out is going to be extra interesting.
--------------
And poor Yu Shen . . . Falling victim to a honey trap.
Hendryk
Banned
One would on the contrary think that if there's a conspiracy, it most definitely is happening. It's only not happening if one imagines a conspiracy where there is none.It's not a conspiracy if it really is happening
In this case I'm not sure what the poor schmuck unearthed that is still so sensitive all those years later. There must be agreements between China and Germany to keep the lid on certain wartime arrangements.
You mean the certain dealings of a Chinese-German-American tripolar new world order?
The Battle of Beiping
The Battle of Beiping
The Battle of Beiping was a major battle of The Second Great War in which the Japanese Army and its allies fought the Chinese Republic for control of the city of Beiping (now Beijing) in northeastern China. The battle took place between 7 December 1937 and 7 December 1938 and was among the largest on the China Front, and was marked by its brutality and disregard for military and civilian casualties. It was amongst the bloodiest battles in the history of warfare with the higher estimates of combined casualties amounting to nearly two million deaths. The outcome was disastrous for China, and created a stalemate in the Northern Front, leading to trench-warfare stasis for several years.
Chinese militia units being rushed to defend Beiping - seen in the characteristic "white" uniform of the militia
The Japanese assault to capture the city began on the dawn of 7 December 1937, nearly a week after the attack on Amoy. This initial assault was rather haphazard, made by tired and disorganized IJA units - on the other hand the city was being defended by disorganized militias. However, entrenched positions and urban combat heavily favoured the NRA militias and this allowed the NRA to triumph in the first round of the long battle.
"...Following this was a long siege which started with the cutting off of Beiping from supplies. The NRA desperately attempted to bring supplies into the Beiping pocket and made efforts to evacuate civilians..."
"...Nonetheless, it was clear by early February that the Qimou port and the other supply methods - while able to supply the Beiping pocket with enough food supplies, could not supply anywhere near enough ammunition - if it was a choice between ammunition or food, Field Marshall Bai Chongxi chose the latter to stop his men and the millions of civilians left in the pocket starving..."
"...With the snow thawing, it was only a matter of time before the Japanese and Manchurian armies would attack again. The Military Council, led by Chiang decided to relieve the pocket immediately, and if possible to hold the city and establish a new line anchored around Beiping."
"...The April Fool Offensive began on April 1 1938. Although the "Spring Storm" offensive was scheduled to begin in June, the IJA successfully cut off the Qimou-Beiping link - bringing an element of urgency to the whole operation and necessitating that the date be bought forward..."
"...The offensive began with a roar of Monster-guns firing ahead to demoralize and confuse the IJA and Manchurian troops. Artillery, mortars and machine guns added to the dim of that clear morning. What remained of China's once proud Tank divisions spearheaded the offensive. Unfortunately, the Japanese had complete air superiority at this point with much of the Chinese Air Force being pulled back to protect the Chinese cities from bombardments. For once the IJA and IJN were able co-operate successfully as IJA planes spotted successfully for IJN Battleships and Heavy Cruisers..."
Destroyed NRA tanks being dragged back for salvage.
"...Although the National Revolutionary Army had made some gains, it was clear merely a week later that this would not be enough. Japanese Naval support and complete air superiority played havoc with the NRA's attempts to move forward... The result was bloody, what remained of the "Elite divisions" had been squandered and lay bloody and broken over the plains of North China... The Tank Armies were also no more, torn apart over open skies by the shells of sea behemoths..."
"...However, Field Marshall Bai Chongxi did not lose hope. He set about fortifying Beiping and preparing for a long and bloody battle..."
Elite Manchurian "Imperial Guards" commanded by Crown Prince Zhang Xueliang was a key part to the reduction of Beiping.
"...The Japanese attack on Beiping began on October 1 1938 with assaults of Manchurian troops. Manchurian elite "Imperial Guards" under the command of Crown Prince Zhang Xueliang fanatically attacked - every day and every night... After being softened up, the Japanese moved in, clearing each city block street by street."
"...By December 7, 1938 - it was clear that resistance was futile. Field Marshall Bai Chongxi lowered the Kuomintang flag from the ruins of the Imperial palace and hoisted a white flag. Japan had won the first major engagement of the Second Great War. What followed was a brutal massacre of the remaining civilians and the surrendered NRA soldiers (although admitedly, the line was blurry in the final days...) In peacetime conditions this would have led to an international outcry - however, events in Europe were rapidly beginning to take up international attention..."
The Battle of Beiping was a major battle of The Second Great War in which the Japanese Army and its allies fought the Chinese Republic for control of the city of Beiping (now Beijing) in northeastern China. The battle took place between 7 December 1937 and 7 December 1938 and was among the largest on the China Front, and was marked by its brutality and disregard for military and civilian casualties. It was amongst the bloodiest battles in the history of warfare with the higher estimates of combined casualties amounting to nearly two million deaths. The outcome was disastrous for China, and created a stalemate in the Northern Front, leading to trench-warfare stasis for several years.
Chinese militia units being rushed to defend Beiping - seen in the characteristic "white" uniform of the militia
The Japanese assault to capture the city began on the dawn of 7 December 1937, nearly a week after the attack on Amoy. This initial assault was rather haphazard, made by tired and disorganized IJA units - on the other hand the city was being defended by disorganized militias. However, entrenched positions and urban combat heavily favoured the NRA militias and this allowed the NRA to triumph in the first round of the long battle.
"...Following this was a long siege which started with the cutting off of Beiping from supplies. The NRA desperately attempted to bring supplies into the Beiping pocket and made efforts to evacuate civilians..."
"...Nonetheless, it was clear by early February that the Qimou port and the other supply methods - while able to supply the Beiping pocket with enough food supplies, could not supply anywhere near enough ammunition - if it was a choice between ammunition or food, Field Marshall Bai Chongxi chose the latter to stop his men and the millions of civilians left in the pocket starving..."
"...With the snow thawing, it was only a matter of time before the Japanese and Manchurian armies would attack again. The Military Council, led by Chiang decided to relieve the pocket immediately, and if possible to hold the city and establish a new line anchored around Beiping."
"...The April Fool Offensive began on April 1 1938. Although the "Spring Storm" offensive was scheduled to begin in June, the IJA successfully cut off the Qimou-Beiping link - bringing an element of urgency to the whole operation and necessitating that the date be bought forward..."
"...The offensive began with a roar of Monster-guns firing ahead to demoralize and confuse the IJA and Manchurian troops. Artillery, mortars and machine guns added to the dim of that clear morning. What remained of China's once proud Tank divisions spearheaded the offensive. Unfortunately, the Japanese had complete air superiority at this point with much of the Chinese Air Force being pulled back to protect the Chinese cities from bombardments. For once the IJA and IJN were able co-operate successfully as IJA planes spotted successfully for IJN Battleships and Heavy Cruisers..."
Destroyed NRA tanks being dragged back for salvage.
"...Although the National Revolutionary Army had made some gains, it was clear merely a week later that this would not be enough. Japanese Naval support and complete air superiority played havoc with the NRA's attempts to move forward... The result was bloody, what remained of the "Elite divisions" had been squandered and lay bloody and broken over the plains of North China... The Tank Armies were also no more, torn apart over open skies by the shells of sea behemoths..."
"...However, Field Marshall Bai Chongxi did not lose hope. He set about fortifying Beiping and preparing for a long and bloody battle..."
Elite Manchurian "Imperial Guards" commanded by Crown Prince Zhang Xueliang was a key part to the reduction of Beiping.
"...The Japanese attack on Beiping began on October 1 1938 with assaults of Manchurian troops. Manchurian elite "Imperial Guards" under the command of Crown Prince Zhang Xueliang fanatically attacked - every day and every night... After being softened up, the Japanese moved in, clearing each city block street by street."
"...By December 7, 1938 - it was clear that resistance was futile. Field Marshall Bai Chongxi lowered the Kuomintang flag from the ruins of the Imperial palace and hoisted a white flag. Japan had won the first major engagement of the Second Great War. What followed was a brutal massacre of the remaining civilians and the surrendered NRA soldiers (although admitedly, the line was blurry in the final days...) In peacetime conditions this would have led to an international outcry - however, events in Europe were rapidly beginning to take up international attention..."
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Great post, but you've got a few mis-labeling problems (like the 'Battle of Stalingrad', and 'Chinese troops moving into Shanghai' instead of Beijing).
Considering that Beijing was reduced to rubble, and the massacre that followed... might the Manchurian troops feel conflicted about the cause they are fighting for, being used as the puppets of the Japanese? How does the Manchurians maintain legitimacy for their rule if they are being used to destroy Chinese cities, while doing the bidding of a long-time national enemy?
With the current Japanese performance in the war thus far, it seems that while China had made considerable advances in its military capabilities, so had Japan, perhaps in response to the growing power of a unified China under Chaing.
However, China is better equipped to make up for the losses of its elite formations, as it has a better industrial foundation. Assuming that China emerges intact, it'll be because they were able to throw more people and more machines at the Japanese, quantity over quality as always.
Considering that Beijing was reduced to rubble, and the massacre that followed... might the Manchurian troops feel conflicted about the cause they are fighting for, being used as the puppets of the Japanese? How does the Manchurians maintain legitimacy for their rule if they are being used to destroy Chinese cities, while doing the bidding of a long-time national enemy?
With the current Japanese performance in the war thus far, it seems that while China had made considerable advances in its military capabilities, so had Japan, perhaps in response to the growing power of a unified China under Chaing.
However, China is better equipped to make up for the losses of its elite formations, as it has a better industrial foundation. Assuming that China emerges intact, it'll be because they were able to throw more people and more machines at the Japanese, quantity over quality as always.
1. Thanks to you and Hendryk - they have been corrected.
2. Well, consider that Manchuria has had several decades of independence and a functional nation-state. The majority of the Manchurians consider themselves to be a separate people and a lot of Manchurians consider that Chiang and China started the war. Of course they're a bit uneasy about the massacre of innocents - but the ferocious resistance that they encountered means that they've had a fair bit of bloodlust themselves.
3. Pretty much. Japan until the mid-1930's made strides towards the integration of Korea into the Japanese Empire with Koreans being given "Empire" citizenship. Japan ITTL is slightly more efficient in the use of resources and slightly more industrialized.
However, ethnic Manchus comprise a minority of the population (like 15% or so at the most), while the vast majority remains Han Chinese... The ethnic Manchus likely control the political apparatus though, while having to 'relearn' many of their old customs, language and culture that differentiated themselves from the Han Chinese. While I could envision ethnic Manchu forces being of high caliber, the ethnic Han Chinese troops which would comprise most of the cannon fodder might not be as eager to fight other Chinese, under both Manchu and Japanese overlords.
Think back to the Olympics, in 1936, where you mentioned how the Chinese population of Manchuria had been secretly rooting for China in the Olympics opposite Japan, or at the very least being torn.
That is a valid point - but I was talking more of the "Imperial Guard" troops who have had a fair bit of indoctrination and would think of themselves as "Manchu" more than "Han"
The Vulture
Banned
Well, this is an interesting development. I imagine international sympathy is mostly with the Chinese here?
hm, how do the Current Chinese tanks Line up against their Japanese counterparts?