Chiang Kai-Shek goes to Germany: An Axis China Timeline
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- Start date
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Beware the currents of the internets,
, always save, least they swallow your uppdates.
, always save, least they swallow your uppdates.
There will be definitely be an update TONIGHT. (Unless my girlfriend wants to hang out...
It's alright... we understand...
Chinese Politics 101: Legislature, Executive and the Judiciary
Chinese Politics 101: Legislature, Executive and the Judiciary
Chinese Politics in the Nanking Era was a complicated mess of competing interest groups, personal loyalties and familial affiliations. In order to understand the structure of Chinese Politics in the area one must come to terms with the "family" system that the Kuomintang advocated during the Nanking decade.
The basic principle of the "family" system was that government and society was to be shaped in a hierarchy with the President as the Father. All who payed respect to and obeyed the President would flourish in the system - communists, trade unionists, businesses, landlords, peasants, bankers, industrialists and a whole range of seemingly disparate groups existed in a relative state of harmony through the wise and benevolent leadership of the President. (Although cynics would argue that it was the fruits of economic growth that created enough prosperity to maintain social cohesion in the face of swift change.) The "Mother" of the Nation was the apparatus of government - as with Chinese domestic politics - the mother reigned supreme in the domestic affairs, but the "Mother" could never deign to question the "Father's" supremely benevolent wisdom.
The "Family" system of Republican China should have lent itself to authoritarian - even outright dictatorial government. Indeed the Second Republic did share features of it's Fascist and National Socialist allies - it had a bloated security apparatus, a harsh and punitive penal system for political prisoners, engaged in mass propaganda efforts aimed at portraying one figure as the "Father" of the nation and exercised wide-ranging censorship efforts. However, the Second Republic never became as authoritarian as it's Italian and German ideological bretheren did - why was this the case?
An important factor for this is that the top leadership of the Kuomintang - from Chiang Kai-shek to Wang Jingwei were convinced democrats by experience. The experience of a crazed and senile Sun Yat-sen nearly running the movement to the ground and destroying all they had accomplished had convinced them all of the need for the President's power to be constrained. Consequently the 1933 Constitutional Convention produced a consitution that still retained a very powerful executive: The President was the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, controlled appointment to the Cabinet, could dissolve the Yuan (Chinese Parliament) and had the power to influence the appointment of 800 of the 2000 member Yuan. The President also chaired the Executive Council The President's term was also set at 10 years. Overall the President's role was very powerful - but he was constrained by several players.
The first player who could play a check on the President's power was the Premier. The Premier was elected to chair the 2000 member Yuan by the Yuan through blind negative voting. The Premier needed to be a member of the Yuan to be eligeble. Whoever received the least negative votes in the election and became Premier. Because of the nature of the voting whoever was the least controversial and most 'non-partisan' and a consensus-oriented figure would receive the job. The Premier acted as a check on the President because being Premier meant automatic inclusion in Cabinet and Executive Council where he/she could use his morale stature and authority against the President. In more blunt terms - the Premier could call for a vote of no confidence which would succeed if it received a 3/4th majority in the Yuan.
The second player who could play a check on the President's power was the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister was elected by the Yuan - whoever could form the most support amongst the disparate factions would win the Prime Ministership. The Prime Minister chaired the Cabinet and could make 'recommendations' on who was selected to the Cabinet - however ultimately the president had the final authority on who was selected. However, Cabinet was closed to the President once the members was chosen - the President was not allowed to participate in meetings - even in an ex-officio capacity. Like the Premier - the Prime Minister had the moral authority to challenge the president. The Prime Minister could call for a vote of no-confidence in the Cabinet which would succeed if it received a 2/3rds majority.
The President's own Executive Council could also check his own power. Any member of the Executive Council could call for a vote of no-confidence which only required a 50% + 1 majority to succeed.
The final player who could check presidential power was the "Supreme Arbiter" - the head of the Chinese Supreme Court. Theoretically speaking, after deliberation, the decision of the Chinese Supreme Court which was conveyed by the Supreme Arbiter was binding and final and since in theory all was equal under law - the President could be removed in this way.
In conclusion - Chinese politics is complex - there is simply no way that one can understand everything in one short sitting. However - the above piece may provide some context and understanding to a very complex topic.
The Relation Between Legislature and the Executive:
Thanks to everyone for their support and kind words
Update schedule - 1935:
Part A: Chinese Politics 101 - Today
Part B: The Election - Tommorow
Part C: Squalor Victoria - Aftermath of the 1935 Election - Friday
Feedback and comments, questions welcome as usual
Chinese Politics in the Nanking Era was a complicated mess of competing interest groups, personal loyalties and familial affiliations. In order to understand the structure of Chinese Politics in the area one must come to terms with the "family" system that the Kuomintang advocated during the Nanking decade.
The basic principle of the "family" system was that government and society was to be shaped in a hierarchy with the President as the Father. All who payed respect to and obeyed the President would flourish in the system - communists, trade unionists, businesses, landlords, peasants, bankers, industrialists and a whole range of seemingly disparate groups existed in a relative state of harmony through the wise and benevolent leadership of the President. (Although cynics would argue that it was the fruits of economic growth that created enough prosperity to maintain social cohesion in the face of swift change.) The "Mother" of the Nation was the apparatus of government - as with Chinese domestic politics - the mother reigned supreme in the domestic affairs, but the "Mother" could never deign to question the "Father's" supremely benevolent wisdom.
The "Family" system of Republican China should have lent itself to authoritarian - even outright dictatorial government. Indeed the Second Republic did share features of it's Fascist and National Socialist allies - it had a bloated security apparatus, a harsh and punitive penal system for political prisoners, engaged in mass propaganda efforts aimed at portraying one figure as the "Father" of the nation and exercised wide-ranging censorship efforts. However, the Second Republic never became as authoritarian as it's Italian and German ideological bretheren did - why was this the case?
An important factor for this is that the top leadership of the Kuomintang - from Chiang Kai-shek to Wang Jingwei were convinced democrats by experience. The experience of a crazed and senile Sun Yat-sen nearly running the movement to the ground and destroying all they had accomplished had convinced them all of the need for the President's power to be constrained. Consequently the 1933 Constitutional Convention produced a consitution that still retained a very powerful executive: The President was the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, controlled appointment to the Cabinet, could dissolve the Yuan (Chinese Parliament) and had the power to influence the appointment of 800 of the 2000 member Yuan. The President also chaired the Executive Council The President's term was also set at 10 years. Overall the President's role was very powerful - but he was constrained by several players.
The first player who could play a check on the President's power was the Premier. The Premier was elected to chair the 2000 member Yuan by the Yuan through blind negative voting. The Premier needed to be a member of the Yuan to be eligeble. Whoever received the least negative votes in the election and became Premier. Because of the nature of the voting whoever was the least controversial and most 'non-partisan' and a consensus-oriented figure would receive the job. The Premier acted as a check on the President because being Premier meant automatic inclusion in Cabinet and Executive Council where he/she could use his morale stature and authority against the President. In more blunt terms - the Premier could call for a vote of no confidence which would succeed if it received a 3/4th majority in the Yuan.
The second player who could play a check on the President's power was the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister was elected by the Yuan - whoever could form the most support amongst the disparate factions would win the Prime Ministership. The Prime Minister chaired the Cabinet and could make 'recommendations' on who was selected to the Cabinet - however ultimately the president had the final authority on who was selected. However, Cabinet was closed to the President once the members was chosen - the President was not allowed to participate in meetings - even in an ex-officio capacity. Like the Premier - the Prime Minister had the moral authority to challenge the president. The Prime Minister could call for a vote of no-confidence in the Cabinet which would succeed if it received a 2/3rds majority.
The President's own Executive Council could also check his own power. Any member of the Executive Council could call for a vote of no-confidence which only required a 50% + 1 majority to succeed.
The final player who could check presidential power was the "Supreme Arbiter" - the head of the Chinese Supreme Court. Theoretically speaking, after deliberation, the decision of the Chinese Supreme Court which was conveyed by the Supreme Arbiter was binding and final and since in theory all was equal under law - the President could be removed in this way.
In conclusion - Chinese politics is complex - there is simply no way that one can understand everything in one short sitting. However - the above piece may provide some context and understanding to a very complex topic.
The Relation Between Legislature and the Executive:
Thanks to everyone for their support and kind words
Update schedule - 1935:
Part A: Chinese Politics 101 - Today
Part B: The Election - Tommorow
Part C: Squalor Victoria - Aftermath of the 1935 Election - Friday
Feedback and comments, questions welcome as usual
YEAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost like a month in blank, finnally we have a update(keep checking you can win the turtledove in this year with your first TL, that will be a great success), well no more serious, a very educative and ilustractive update:
Didn't you study politics???(beside you know a lot), because your description of * Nationalist Chinesse political system, have a lot of counter-weigth power very difficult to understand but very useful in some scenario(like your said, China is the most Democratic *Axis Member in TTL).
Well good update but now you let us with a very deseperating Cliffhanger(about the title of part 3), but well waiting for democracy to work... if the nazis can obtain in OTL a simple majory, they Chiang and the KMT can have the 51% even in a tough election) i hope than the Chinesse Goebles is doing her job....
well thanks for the update, with your life8(and your new girlfriend) you will have a lot of priorities, but his good you keep going and aswer us very on time. well waiting for the good week of update
Att
Nivek von Beldo
Almost like a month in blank, finnally we have a update(keep checking you can win the turtledove in this year with your first TL, that will be a great success), well no more serious, a very educative and ilustractive update:
Didn't you study politics???(beside you know a lot), because your description of * Nationalist Chinesse political system, have a lot of counter-weigth power very difficult to understand but very useful in some scenario(like your said, China is the most Democratic *Axis Member in TTL).
Well good update but now you let us with a very deseperating Cliffhanger(about the title of part 3), but well waiting for democracy to work... if the nazis can obtain in OTL a simple majory, they Chiang and the KMT can have the 51% even in a tough election) i hope than the Chinesse Goebles is doing her job....
well thanks for the update, with your life8(and your new girlfriend) you will have a lot of priorities, but his good you keep going and aswer us very on time. well waiting for the good week of update
Att
Nivek von Beldo
Great stuff! That's a fascinating government system. I actually like the negative vote policy. How much does this gov't structure resemble OTL's?
That's a fascinating government system. I actually like the negative vote policy. How much does this gov't structure resemble OTL's?Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
I wonder,
Will there be an axis Armenia in this TL?
Am working on a few guess-based map, not too sure of the results.
Will there be an axis Armenia in this TL?
Am working on a few guess-based map, not too sure of the results.
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Version-1,
Just to give a few ideas for a post-war map, better to start preparations early.
It could be a full axis member Vichy France, much like Italy or it could be an allied France.
Deep green is evidently China itself, light green are Chinese allies.
Countries seized in 1940 have been evacuated and are in a situation similar to that of Finland after WW2, Germany simply doesn´t want any extra populations to feed.
Notice Madagascar and further south of it.
Just to give a few ideas for a post-war map, better to start preparations early.
It could be a full axis member Vichy France, much like Italy or it could be an allied France.
Deep green is evidently China itself, light green are Chinese allies.
Countries seized in 1940 have been evacuated and are in a situation similar to that of Finland after WW2, Germany simply doesn´t want any extra populations to feed.
Notice Madagascar and further south of it.
Real life has sunk her wretched hands into the updating schedule
It's quite unfortunate but such is life. I've got a 4 day conference to chair, a politics and economics degree to major in and friends, family and girlfriend to balance.
Thank you to everyone for their support so far though - I really value everyone's kind comments and stuff.
It's quite unfortunate but such is life. I've got a 4 day conference to chair, a politics and economics degree to major in and friends, family and girlfriend to balance.
Thank you to everyone for their support so far though - I really value everyone's kind comments and stuff.
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Post-war world map?
Here is a suggestion, you can modifie until satisfaction.
Madagascar and New Swabia ITTL?
Here is a suggestion, you can modifie until satisfaction.
Madagascar and New Swabia ITTL?
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Just
bumping by,...
I hope this timeline continue until 2010, so this China can be a true hyper power and have tens of millions of soldiers under armes, at least one city with 200-300 millions inhabitants.
bumping by,...
I hope this timeline continue until 2010, so this China can be a true hyper power and have tens of millions of soldiers under armes, at least one city with 200-300 millions inhabitants.
Will the early parts of this thread ever be put into the Timelines forum? It'll make this easier to follow, and that's what the forum is for, after all.
Heh. Wouldn't be hard. Most ANY female would beI bet it's the girlfriend. She's more attractive-looking than we are.
