If Cheng Shih wins at the Battle of the Tiger's Mouth, or at least manages to break out of the Humen Strait, then the Red Flag Fleet remains a real and present threat to Qing trade and coastal settlements. If the pressure is kept up, then I argue that Qing would have to sink or swim, as it were; take the fleet seriously and rebuild the navy in a more modern manner, or suffer an increasing breakdown of authority in coastal areas, which would likely lead to revolts and the eventual fall of the empire.
Having an actual and consistent budget for a start, rather than funds being pilfered for things like a stone boat for the palace or something stupid like that. Next thing on the to do list is of course root out at least some of the worst levels of corruption.How would a modernization process work for the Navy?
Having an actual and consistent budget for a start, rather than funds being pilfered for things like a stone boat for the palace or something stupid like that. Next thing on the to do list is of course root out at least some of the worst levels of corruption.
One that won't end up losing the first Sino-Japan War, probably, maybe.Too what levels of modernization could be enacted if they put a ton of funds into a modernization of the navy, and they get rid of the majority of corruption?
"Good", more motivations for also modernizing the army then, if only to crack more heads when need be. Maybe a ripple effect of being able to knock out the Taiping rebellion somewhat faster when they show up.(though the decay of the Grand Canal will lead to a lot of angry unemployed peasants).
One that won't end up losing the first Sino-Japan War, probably, maybe.
Depends on how much money the court is willing to spend. A better anti-piracy navy will probably not be a war winner against the RN. OTOH Britain was running such a high deficit from the tea trade that IIRC they offered to sell warships, but no deal. Maybe bc the Qing economy was struggling and they were more worried about internal rebellions.
A good investment might be coastal forts with modern guns. Even those simple but effective Martello towers. IIRC, before the Opium War when British missions inspected Chinese coastal forts they found many guns were fakes and the real ones were old models without traverse for bmbarding a fixed spot.
The Qing had really low tax rates plus an extremely corrupt bureaucracy that embezzled a sizeable share of it, overall GPD China was still the world's largest by the early 1800s, but that doesn't translate into the health of the Qing treasury.How much money does the Qing make? Or it's GDP? At 1809.
How much money does the Qing make? Or it's GDP? At 1809.
Ugh, I hate math.
Okay using Angus Maddison’s data for 1820:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e96a48e6d4a7dbac8b2f5a350f39c671-c
UK and China’s population for 1821:
http://www.populstat.info/Europe/unkingdc.htm
http://www.populstat.info/Asia/chinac.htm
I get in 1990 dollars:
UK - 24 billion
China - 213 billion
2 cents and some tea leaves until it's way too late (i.e. their core interests get threatened directly). You need to get rid of at least some of the worst of the corruption as well as streamline the taxation service.So 213 billion dollars for the Qing's GDP in 1809. How much of that are the Qing willing to spend on a modernization of the navy? I was thinking 10%.
But how willing are the Qing to modernizing the Navy? Even if they don't get rid of the corrupt officials, what percent is the Qing willing to modernize the Navy?
So 213 billion dollars for the Qing's GDP in 1809. How much of that are the Qing willing to spend on a modernization of the navy? I was thinking 10%.
But how willing are the Qing to modernizing the Navy? Even if they don't get rid of the corrupt officials, what percent is the Qing willing to modernize the Navy?
2 cents and some tea leaves until it's way too late (i.e. their core interests get threatened directly). You need to get rid of at least some of the worst of the corruption as well as streamline the taxation service.
Why would they spend anymore than they did? The only threat they ever saw from the sea were pirates, and the government successfully bought off pirates to deal with other pirates.
Maybe Cheng Sao destroys the Qing fleet entirely during the Battle of the Tigers Mouth, as well as the Black fleet staying loyal, allowing Cheng too continue piracy, and also fuels more pirates across the Qing to form, forcing the Qing to try to modernize their naval power.