CHC: Slavery in the USA in a CSA TL:

Yes, Leonidas Polk! Leonidas Polk should've been kicked in the dick for...well...everything.

No, just pull a Uriah Gambit and put him in the front line and let the Union kill him. The CSA gets a new martyr, Bragg plausible deniability, and the Union the satisfaction of beating Bragg without his subordinates stabbing him in the back first. The Army of Tennessee would teach the Decepticons lessons on how to backstab your superiors. First it was Polk and Johnston, then Polk and Bragg, then Hood and Johnston, then Cheatham and Hardee and Hood. :rolleyes::mad:
 
Hence the "gradual emancipation" part. ;)
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - what I meant was slavery was too deeply rooted for Kentucky to even want to enact any sort of emancipation for the next couple decades. The only thing that would've changed things was Federal action, and I don't see that for the next couple decades either. I want a free United States, but the earliest I can see it happening with a CSA victory is 1880.

Yes, Leonidas Polk! Leonidas Polk should've been kicked in the dick for...well...everything.
No, no, give him a medal for his great service to the United States cause!:D
 
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - what I meant was slavery was too deeply rooted for Kentucky to even want to enact any sort of emancipation for the next couple decades. The only thing that would've changed things was Federal action, and I don't see that for the next couple decades either. I want a free United States, but the earliest I can see it happening with a CSA victory is 1880.

I agree, as at least part of the pressure of a potentially hostile CSA that would have been able to menace the USA requires it shake out some of the fledgling-state issues, a process that would take 20 years as it is. Perhaps longer, given the kind of disorganization already introduced into the pre-war system even in a short victory.
 
Slaveholders in the border states were already tending towards selling their slaves to the deep south or offering them freedom in return for a certain number of years of work. With an independent CSA, slaveholding Union states are in a distinct minority, so both of these trends would accelerate. I expect the border states will follow the model of New York or New Jersey, where all children of slaves born after a certain date will become free on reaching adulthood.

I'm guessing these ordinances will pass 10-25 years after the war ends. By 1910, the US will all technically be free territory, though it will be several more decades before the last slaves not covered by gradual emancipation die of old age.
 
The issue is probably more problematic than Snake originally stated. Even in a "Lee destroys McClellan" scenario, the Union controls most of Tennessee, most of Arkansas, and the entire Mississippi River in the 1862-1863 timeline. And of course, western Virginia.

A "super Perryville" presents some problems, but unless the war immediately ends, the Union has plenty of time to recover its position in Kentucky and eastern Tennessee. Recovering from this may prevent it from expanding elsewhere in the west, but I think the Union could use the time it has during the mediate peace talks. Because from that point, the issue is no longer will the CSA become independent - it will be because Union morale is no longer sufficient to force the entirety to return - but how much of the territory of the seceded states can be retained in the final peace settlement. BOTH sides need to be realistic and accept what they can hold, versus what they ideally prefer. By the time the Europeans begin the peace process, the Union can recover in KY and still keep its western gains, even if it's recognized that Virginia can't be taken.

By summer 1863, almost the entirety of those areas are in Union hands. Even in a mediated peace, the US can likely keep those four states (WV, TN, AR, LA) since WV, TN and AR have substantial populations loyal to the Union, and control of the Mississippi River is essential to the US. Lincoln can't give that up - it's too important. Texas is cut off from the rest of the Confederacy, but that may not be a big stumbling block towards peace. Texas might be just as happy to be detached or even use it as a chance to become its own nation.

If McClellan botches Antietam, there is a huge issue with whether the Emancipation Proclamation is ever issued. But if there is, there is potentially a huge mass of freed slaves to possibly incorporate into the Union. I doubt any European mediator would insist on their return to slavery as a condition for peace.

In any case, I don't see slavery lasting very long whether we have only a Border State slavery situation (Snake's scenario) or an expanded Union scenario (where the Union keeps what gains it won in the battlefield). Slavery is banned from the territories obviously. Among the states, some form of compensated emancipation may take place, perhaps combined with a deferred emanicpation with future generations of blacks born free, or a rolling automatic emancipation in the future. Without the Deep South fire eaters, the position is untenable in the long run. By 1890, slavery is gone.

Even if the Republican Party is discredited for its loss in the war, the free soilers will be back in yet another party.

Of course, another issue is what will the US do with all of those fugitive slaves fleeing the CSA and crossing the border into the USA?
 
The issue is probably more problematic than Snake originally stated. Even in a "Lee destroys McClellan" scenario, the Union controls most of Tennessee, most of Arkansas, and the entire Mississippi River in the 1862-1863 timeline. And of course, western Virginia.

A "super Perryville" presents some problems, but unless the war immediately ends, the Union has plenty of time to recover its position in Kentucky and eastern Tennessee. Recovering from this may prevent it from expanding elsewhere in the west, but I think the Union could use the time it has during the mediate peace talks. Because from that point, the issue is no longer will the CSA become independent - it will be because Union morale is no longer sufficient to force the entirety to return - but how much of the territory of the seceded states can be retained in the final peace settlement. BOTH sides need to be realistic and accept what they can hold, versus what they ideally prefer. By the time the Europeans begin the peace process, the Union can recover in KY and still keep its western gains, even if it's recognized that Virginia can't be taken.

A Super-Perryville in one sense is a two-edged sword: at the one hand it's a dramatic, sweeping victory which nobody watching it or studying it would deny, at the other hand Bragg's starving army doesn't materialize the food and the like it needed to sustain its presence in Kentucky out of thin air in the wake of the battle. It might strengthen the CS government in Kentucky, but that still doesn't pony up the food Bragg's army will need, and if his army's larger, he needs more of it.
 
The issue is probably more problematic than Snake originally stated. Even in a "Lee destroys McClellan" scenario, the Union controls most of Tennessee, most of Arkansas, and the entire Mississippi River in the 1862-1863 timeline. And of course, western Virginia.

A "super Perryville" presents some problems, but unless the war immediately ends, the Union has plenty of time to recover its position in Kentucky and eastern Tennessee. Recovering from this may prevent it from expanding elsewhere in the west, but I think the Union could use the time it has during the mediate peace talks. Because from that point, the issue is no longer will the CSA become independent - it will be because Union morale is no longer sufficient to force the entirety to return - but how much of the territory of the seceded states can be retained in the final peace settlement. BOTH sides need to be realistic and accept what they can hold, versus what they ideally prefer. By the time the Europeans begin the peace process, the Union can recover in KY and still keep its western gains, even if it's recognized that Virginia can't be taken.

By summer 1863, almost the entirety of those areas are in Union hands. Even in a mediated peace, the US can likely keep those four states (WV, TN, AR, LA) since WV, TN and AR have substantial populations loyal to the Union, and control of the Mississippi River is essential to the US. Lincoln can't give that up - it's too important. Texas is cut off from the rest of the Confederacy, but that may not be a big stumbling block towards peace. Texas might be just as happy to be detached or even use it as a chance to become its own nation.

If McClellan botches Antietam, there is a huge issue with whether the Emancipation Proclamation is ever issued. But if there is, there is potentially a huge mass of freed slaves to possibly incorporate into the Union. I doubt any European mediator would insist on their return to slavery as a condition for peace.

In any case, I don't see slavery lasting very long whether we have only a Border State slavery situation (Snake's scenario) or an expanded Union scenario (where the Union keeps what gains it won in the battlefield). Slavery is banned from the territories obviously. Among the states, some form of compensated emancipation may take place, perhaps combined with a deferred emanicpation with future generations of blacks born free, or a rolling automatic emancipation in the future. Without the Deep South fire eaters, the position is untenable in the long run. By 1890, slavery is gone.

Even if the Republican Party is discredited for its loss in the war, the free soilers will be back in yet another party.

Of course, another issue is what will the US do with all of those fugitive slaves fleeing the CSA and crossing the border into the USA?

I think a lot of the slaves in the USA will be sold to the CSA whether it is legal or not as the slaveowners want to sell while they still can. If it is legal there are no problems if it is illegal they can always find a way to smuggle them south.
 
I think a lot of the slaves in the USA will be sold to the CSA whether it is legal or not as the slaveowners want to sell while they still can. If it is legal there are no problems if it is illegal they can always find a way to smuggle them south.

Actually in a way I could see the colonization movement encouraging precisely this as the "solution" to US slavery.....:(:eek:
 
Actually in a way I could see the colonization movement encouraging precisely this as the "solution" to US slavery.....:(:eek:

Yep, with some free soilers it was more "Make sure the niggers are kept out of where I live" than anti-slavery. That includes many in the colonization movement which was as much about getting the US to be lilly white than anything else.
 
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