Charles V, German Emperor

The series of deaths which led to Charles V to become the "Universal Emperor" is quite, very, extraordinarily unlikely. So lets say that someone survives in that long line of infant mortality, insanity, and just plain bad luck, and Charles, he may not become the Fifth, is just the heir to his father, and thus the Hapsburgs, who stay an HRE only dynasty.

Now I think that Charles V can still be elected Holy Roman Emperor over his chief rival, the King of France Francis I, after his grandfather's death (his father pre-deceased his grandfather, maybe this gets butterflied, maybe not) even without direct access to the American gold that he was able to purchase the election with OTL.

Charles was raised in what had been the Duchy of Burgundy, one of the cradles of Humanism, and I think that if his strategic situation were changed, i.e. were he not King of Spain and Naples, then he would be able to see the huge political benefits that Protestantism had. I mention his upbringing because a lot of that Humanist thinking, from Erasmus for instance, is very proto-Protestant.

So Charles V, instead of trying to destroy Protestantism, could take a much more Henry VIII kind of approach, using the wealth of the church to secure the Imperial throne, and build up Imperial institutions. With high-level, Imperial control of the Reformation, it may be just that, a Reformation of the Catholic Church, taking the Reformation on a historical pathway totally alien from OTL. I think that Protestantism in Germany tapped into a kind of proto-nationalism, and that feeling could be harnessed by an intelligent and properly positioned Emperor.

Charles V, the last Emperor to be crowned by the Pope, and the first Emperor to truly rule the Empire.

Thoughts?
 
Well, I'm not sure quite what you mean about the Humanist influence of Erasmus being proto-Protestant. More precisely, they echo a concern about the corruption of the Catholic church, but certainly not sola scriptura or salvation by faith alone, Luther's eventual theological objections to the Catholic church.

Charles will still have the problem of confronting Luther and needing to defend Catholicism in some way if Luther takes the theological course he ultimately did. Charles could of course preempt Luther by reforming the Church before anything is post at Wurtemburg.

Also, even if he does need to oppose Luther, his resources are vastly diminished if he can't count on the wealth of Spanish North America to fund campaigns against the Protestants.
 
Well, I'm not sure quite what you mean about the Humanist influence of Erasmus being proto-Protestant. More precisely, they echo a concern about the corruption of the Catholic church, but certainly not sola scriptura or salvation by faith alone, Luther's eventual theological objections to the Catholic church.

Eventual is the key word. What I'm postulating is that Luther's theological disputes with the Church would come at the same time that Charles is looking for a steady revenue source and that always elusive way to bind the Holy Roman Empire into something actually Imperial. Luther's dispute may strike a chord within Charles, being an evolution of the Humanist view of the corrupt church, and politically appealing for the above stated reasons.

Charles will still have the problem of confronting Luther and needing to defend Catholicism in some way if Luther takes the theological course he ultimately did. Charles could of course preempt Luther by reforming the Church before anything is post at Wurtemburg.

Also, even if he does need to oppose Luther, his resources are vastly diminished if he can't count on the wealth of Spanish North America to fund campaigns against the Protestants.

What I was thinking is that Charles would embrace Luther's initial theology, and using Luther as a strawman to take control of church property within the Holy Roman Empire. If he is able to get German support for the seizure of Church property, and then he would be able to distribute the land to various supporters, ala Henry VIII, securing his dynasty by tying these supporters (presumably leading German princes) to its success.

The lack of American mineral resources would increase the likelihood that he would make this kind of move, in order to secure the resources that his dynasty needs to unite the HRE.

If Charles DOES NOT become the Holy Roman Emperor on his grandfather's death, and instead his chief rival, Francis I of France, is elected, then I think that the likelihood that Charles would sponsor Luther would vastly, vastly increase. By using Luther, Charles would be able to rally German support for "German Liberties" against a "Foreign Church and a Foreign Church." The first Wars of Religion fought between France and the Catholic princes on one side, and the Hapsburg and their Reformer allies on the other.

If Charles is able to spin his support of Luther as some kind of "reform" rather than outright heresy, he may get support from his Spanish relatives, who in the case of his being HRE or not would be his ally against France. The Jesuits and the Catholic Counter-Reformation in my reading of the history represented a real desire among many in Catholic Europe for the kind of reforms that the Protestants themselves carried out. If Charles is able to spin his opposition to the Church in the right way it may be the French and the Church against the Spanish and Germans.

Religious history totally FUBAR.
 
So Charles V, instead of trying to destroy Protestantism, could take a much more Henry VIII kind of approach, using the wealth of the church to secure the Imperial throne, and build up Imperial institutions. With high-level, Imperial control of the Reformation, it may be just that, a Reformation of the Catholic Church, taking the Reformation on a historical pathway totally alien from OTL. I think that Protestantism in Germany tapped into a kind of proto-nationalism, and that feeling could be harnessed by an intelligent and properly positioned Emperor.

I agree to an extent, but I see two problems:

1) Why not coopt the Church estates rather than annexing them directly (which I don't think the princes would have allowed). The Church lands were often supporters of the HRE, after all.

2) Why not tie it into his plans in Swabia and plans for the Reichsregiment and so forth? I still think it's not enough, but maybe if it's coupled with a greater Ottoman threat, or somesuch...
 
Matthais Corvinus,

Put this way, I see your point. There's some potential there. I too though have some questions:

1) Whether or not he is HRE, Charles' Imperial Reform movement will need to contend with the petty German princes who iOTL supported Luther. IIRC, a large part of their support derived from their desire to take on greater autonomy and increase their own power and prestige. They would not side with Charles for the same reason. Charles might be able to offer them something, perhaps a revised imperial Diet with more say for them?

2) How sucessful is Charles in his reform of the Church and Empire? If he only acheives something on par with OTL, then the HRE will probably still be split, with the petty princes of the north siding with Catholicism against Charles' newfangled beliefs. Then again, this may not be very likely since France may try to take advantage of the situation and hence may support Charles.

3) Bottom line, religious and thus political history of the time is screwed up beyond belief, but doesn't necessarily lead to Charles as German Emperor. Are you going to develop the idea further because it sounds highly intriguing?
 
Matthais Corvinus,

Put this way, I see your point. There's some potential there. I too though have some questions:

1) Whether or not he is HRE, Charles' Imperial Reform movement will need to contend with the petty German princes who iOTL supported Luther. IIRC, a large part of their support derived from their desire to take on greater autonomy and increase their own power and prestige. They would not side with Charles for the same reason. Charles might be able to offer them something, perhaps a revised imperial Diet with more say for them?

I was thinking about this, and off the top of my head and a bit of wikipediaing, what if the 10 Circles of OTL HRE were promoted to be the new electors. Each Circle would have a single vote, and each Circle would have its own Circlestag or something to decide how to cast it. This will really piss off the Elector-Princes. Were the small princes important enough to do this with?

2) How sucessful is Charles in his reform of the Church and Empire? If he only acheives something on par with OTL, then the HRE will probably still be split, with the petty princes of the north siding with Catholicism against Charles' newfangled beliefs. Then again, this may not be very likely since France may try to take advantage of the situation and hence may support Charles.

What I was envisioning was a "reform" of the church along Erasmusian lines, where Charles and the Reichstag would declare the Church to be corrupt, and that they were going to take responsibility for cleaning it up.

Really what I need to figure out is how to get the Imperial cities and the small princes to support Charles. In my view the way to get reform of the HRE is for the Emperor to get support from the smallest units of the HRE, so that he can break the power of the great princes. Imperial Reform in the Council of Princes and the Council of Cities to break the Council of Electors I guess. By break I mean bring the polities of the HRE back inside it, so that polities in the HRE are no longer allowed to seek alliances outside of the HRE, and princely power is much more tied to internal Reichstag politics rather than external power politics.

3) Bottom line, religious and thus political history of the time is screwed up beyond belief, but doesn't necessarily lead to Charles as German Emperor. Are you going to develop the idea further because it sounds highly intriguing?

I'm thinking that Francis I as HRE might put Charles in a better position to actually unite the HRE. I don't remember who said it, but if you look at Hapsburg possessions prior to the acquisition of Spain, you have the former Burgundian territories on one side, and the Austrian territories on the other, rather like Prussia's position post-Vienna 1816. If Francis is viewed as the threat to German Liberties, then Charles could put himself forward as the Defender of Germany. I don't know how anachrostic it would be to get him elected the German anti-King at some point, but who knows . . .
 
Top