Charles the bold get's imprisoned for a long time

What if Charles the bold somehow survives the battle at Nancy in 1477 and get's captured by Rene II duke of lorraine.

His daughter mary of burgundy signs the great privilege. To get the funds to pay his ransom. However Charles the bold get's wind of it and sends a official letter denouncing it. The flemish merchants/nobles do not wan't to pay unless Charles ratifies the privilege and Charles is well stuborn.

Both the king (france) and the emperor (Frederick III) are interested in the matter
Because Charles is still alive france does not invade burgundy.
This goes on until at least 1480 when Rene I of anjou dies and Rene II duke of lorraine wants to inherit his lands.

How would the situation evolve from this point? What would Mary have done in these 3 years?
 
What if Charles the bold somehow survives the battle at Nancy in 1477 and get's captured by Rene II duke of lorraine.

His daughter mary of burgundy signs the great privilege. To get the funds to pay his ransom. However Charles the bold get's wind of it and sends a official letter denouncing it. The flemish merchants/nobles do not wan't to pay unless Charles ratifies the privilege and Charles is well stuborn.

Both the king (france) and the emperor (Frederick III) are interested in the matter
Because Charles is still alive france does not invade burgundy.
This goes on until at least 1480 when Rene I of anjou dies and Rene II duke of lorraine wants to inherit his lands.

How would the situation evolve from this point? What would Mary have done in these 3 years?
She still marries Archduke Maximilian to get help from the Habsburgs.
 
She still marries Archduke Maximilian to get help from the Habsburgs.
- I tought one of the reasons Maximilian married mary was for her money (mary the rich). Maximilian had the troops sure, but would he have been as interested if he also had to pay Charles randsom before the marriage (Mary the geuze in stead of the rich)?
- In this version Louis XI does not has a casus to invade burgundy (Charles in still alive). (Do you believe he still would invade the Burgundy/lowcountries in this scenario?)
- Rene II is expecting a pay day and treats charles relativly well. He is not that worried that the lowcountries don't pay inmediatly because he wants to keep good relations with france who is going to backstab him the moment charles is dead. And he wants to inherit his granddad's property (provence,anjou).Afther Rene of anjou dies (in 3 years) with Charles somewhere in a tower he has better cards with the king of france. Also afther 3 wars it's better to let it rest for a while to get a higher price.
- Would maximilian attack Lorraine to get charles? France would invade inmediatly and Rene II could be a potential future ally
 
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- I tought one of the reasons Maximilian married mary was for her money (mary the rich). Maximilian had the troops sure, but would he have been as interested if he also had to pay Charles randsom before the marriage (Mary the geuze in stead of the rich)?
- In this version Louis XI does not has a casus to invade burgundy (Charles in still alive). (Do you believe he still would invade the Burgundy/lowcountries in this scenario?)
- Rene II is expecting a pay day and treats charles relativly well. He is not that worried that the lowcountries don't pay inmediatly because he wants to keep good relations with france who is going to backstab him the moment charles is dead. And he wants to inherit his granddad's property (provence,anjou).Afther Rene of anjou dies (in 3 years) with Charles somewhere in a tower he has better cards with the king of france. Also afther 3 wars it's better to let it rest for a while to get a higher price.
- Would maximilian attack Lorraine to get charles? France would invade inmediatly and Rene II could be a potential future ally
That is because Mary was already betrothed to Max at that point and I don't think he has to pay the ransom prior to the marriage he could just attack Lorraine.
 
That is because Mary was already betrothed to Max at that point and I don't think he has to pay the ransom prior to the marriage he could just attack Lorraine.
Charles had the habit of offering his daughter for marriage to a lot of people some of these where: Philip of cleves; George Plantagenet 1st Duke of Clarence; charles of valois to name some of them. To make the engagement stick Charles would have demanded his crown (Rene of lorraine also got his crown in jail)
I don't think he has to pay the ransom prior to the marriage
You believe France would still invade? If not what exactly is he offering why the hurry?
he could just attack Lorraine.
history tells us that Louis XI turnend on lorraine the moment Charles was death and this should not have surprised Rene II.
By what right would the emperor invade, also would the emperor even want to set Charles free?
Theirs clearly a opening for a diplomatic solution here.
Personaly rather then invade I see Frederick able to make a deal with Rene II as this insures Rene's survival.
In these negotiations it is in Rene II intrest to stall and see if he can inherit his grandathers lands. Putting the king against the emperor.
 
Charles had the habit of offering his daughter for marriage to a lot of people some of these where: Philip of cleves; George Plantagenet 1st Duke of Clarence; charles of valois to name some of them. To make the engagement stick Charles would have demanded his crown (Rene of lorraine also got his crown in jail)

You believe France would still invade? If not what exactly is he offering why the hurry?

history tells us that Louis XI turnend on lorraine the moment Charles was death and this should not have surprised Rene II.
By what right would the emperor invade, also would the emperor even want to set Charles free?
Theirs clearly a opening for a diplomatic solution here.
Personaly rather then invade I see Frederick able to make a deal with Rene II as this insures Rene's survival.
In these negotiations it is in Rene II intrest to stall and see if he can inherit his grandathers lands. Putting the king against the emperor.
He had no choice, since he is in jail.
 
Rene II cell, not Frederick III or Louis XI cell.
Rene II main intrest would be for france not to turn against him and to ensure his claim on provence and anjou. For this to happen his grand father(rene of anjou 68 in 1477) must die so he is not in a hurry to let Charles go. (this would happen in 3 years)
If Charles publicly denounces the great privilege the merchants of the low countries would not pay his ransom, so it's in Rene II intrest that they do not pay up until afther his grandfather is dead. So Rene would probably keep Charles informed. And allow correspondence.

If the emperor invades (lorraine) Charles will be kept safe in france and be sold in return for french aid. If the king invades Charles will be kept safe in the holy roman empire and sold in return for aid. So nobody attacks. (if both attack Charles is sold either to the english or released to burgundy)


He had no choice, since he is in jail.
Also the man was stuborn.
 
Rene II cell, not Frederick III or Louis XI cell.
Rene II main intrest would be for france not to turn against him and to ensure his claim on provence and anjou. For this to happen his grand father(rene of anjou 68 in 1477) must die so he is not in a hurry to let Charles go. (this would happen in 3 years)
If Charles publicly denounces the great privilege the merchants of the low countries would not pay his ransom, so it's in Rene II intrest that they do not pay up until afther his grandfather is dead. So Rene would probably keep Charles informed. And allow correspondence.

If the emperor invades (lorraine) Charles will be kept safe in france and be sold in return for french aid. If the king invades Charles will be kept safe in the holy roman empire and sold in return for aid. So nobody attacks. (if both attack Charles is sold either to the english or released to burgundy)



Also the man was stuborn.
Yeah, and most likely he will end up poisoned by either the french king or people in the faction of Mary's husband.
 
When do you think Mary wil marry in this scenario? around the same time? Will the french invasion still happen?

Renee II cousin Nicholas I duke of lorraine had been poisened only a few years before. You think afther loosing a family member (and becoming presumed heir) he would be careful around food.
 
They would not convince her to marry unless Louis XI attacked. The states general would like to use her as a puppet to rule themself whilst Charles is imprisoned. they could even threaten to allow the marriage with either Maximiliaan or some english person. If france invaded. Louis XI would not be as keen to invade when Charles is still alive altough he might try to kill mary because the threath of marrying her off to germany or england is to big.
The states general would probably like pragmatically to make a treaty with the king of france recognizing mary as legitimate heir of burgundy (mostly for the crown lands) and be excempt of homage similar like her grandfather philip in the treaty of arras. In return the states general and mary would promise not to mary into the habsburgs or the english.
Louis would probably agree to that as he is not interested in keeping his word.
Likewise the states general would probably like to keep their options open as long as possible. Mary is only 20 in 1477 plenty of time.
 
They would not convince her to marry unless Louis XI attacked. The states general would like to use her as a puppet to rule themself whilst Charles is imprisoned. they could even threaten to allow the marriage with either Maximiliaan or some english person. If france invaded. Louis XI would not be as keen to invade when Charles is still alive altough he might try to kill mary because the threath of marrying her off to germany or england is to big.
The states general would probably like pragmatically to make a treaty with the king of france recognizing mary as legitimate heir of burgundy (mostly for the crown lands) and be excempt of homage similar like her grandfather philip in the treaty of arras. In return the states general and mary would promise not to mary into the habsburgs or the english.
Louis would probably agree to that as he is not interested in keeping his word.
Likewise the states general would probably like to keep their options open as long as possible. Mary is only 20 in 1477 plenty of time.
I think she can marry the OTL Duke of Lorraine, Rene and have his wife sent into a nunnery.
 
I think she can marry the OTL Duke of Lorraine, Rene and have his wife sent into a nunnery.
that would work having Charles the bold not mary Yolande of anjou (renee's mom) was Philip the good's biggest mistake. Having their kids marry could perhaps have still saved burgundy. France would not have liked it tough and would have probably invaded and I can't see Frederick .liking it as well.
 
that would work having Charles the bold not mary Yolande of anjou (renee's mom) was Philip the good's biggest mistake. Having their kids marry could perhaps have still saved burgundy. France would not have liked it tough and would have probably invaded and I can't see Frederick .liking it as well.
That might have worked if Rene's brother had not died without heirs.
 
I think she can marry the OTL Duke of Lorraine, Rene and have his wife sent into a nunnery.
that would work having Charles the bold not mary Yolande of anjou (renee's mom) was Philip the good's biggest mistake. Having their kids marry could perhaps have still saved burgundy. France would not have liked it tough and would have probably invaded and I can't see Frederick .liking it as well.
No way that will happen. You need a surviving Nicholas of Anjou for an union between Burgundy and Lorraine, who would be a good thing for both lands and one step forward the crown (of Lotharingia) who Charles the Bold wished
 
No way that will happen. You need a surviving Nicholas of Anjou for an union between Burgundy and Lorraine, who would be a good thing for both lands and one step forward the crown (of Lotharingia) who Charles the Bold wished
Do you believe Louis XI would invade Burgundy (or lorraine) if Charles was still alive?
Do you believe Renee could somehow play the emperor and the king against each other?
Would Louis XI bless the marriage between Renee and mary to make sure she does not mary Maximiliaan.
Especialy if in the wedding contract it states that if they get a daughter she will be sold to the french dauphin with artois and maybe nevers and rethel as her dowry?

Could Renee appease the emperor and buy himself a crown given Maximiliaan the funds of marrying Mary but still keeping his Max single for a other wife and out of a potential war with france? (I figure the emperor would grant protection until at least the death of charles the bold basicly whilst he pays a sum of money most of the money is transfered annualy so they are ensured to get protected)

What do you think ultimatly would happen.
Would their be a war?
What would be the ultimate fate of Charles the bold you think? Let's say if left unmolested he get's the same age as his dad and would die in 1504 (71Years) He can offcourse be killed before this day.
Would it cause huge problems if Charles the bold outlives Charles VIII?
Would he become king of france, Would his grandson become king of france as it goes through a female line?
Let's keep it simple and he no longer get's any children.
Like OTL Louis XI will ignore the mariage contract so charles VIII can mary anne of brittany in stead.
Who will maximiliaan mary?
 
Do you believe Louis XI would invade Burgundy (or lorraine) if Charles was still alive?
Do you believe Renee could somehow play the emperor and the king against each other?
Would Louis XI bless the marriage between Renee and mary to make sure she does not mary Maximiliaan.
Especialy if in the wedding contract it states that if they get a daughter she will be sold to the french dauphin with artois and maybe nevers and rethel as her dowry?

Could Renee appease the emperor and buy himself a crown given Maximiliaan the funds of marrying Mary but still keeping his Max single for a other wife and out of a potential war with france? (I figure the emperor would grant protection until at least the death of charles the bold basicly whilst he pays a sum of money most of the money is transfered annualy so they are ensured to get protected)

What do you think ultimatly would happen.
Would their be a war?
What would be the ultimate fate of Charles the bold you think? Let's say if left unmolested he get's the same age as his dad and would die in 1504 (71Years) He can offcourse be killed before this day.
Would it cause huge problems if Charles the bold outlives Charles VIII?
Would he become king of france, Would his grandson become king of france as it goes through a female line?
Let's keep it simple and he no longer get's any children.
Like OTL Louis XI will ignore the mariage contract so charles VIII can mary anne of brittany in stead.
Who will maximiliaan mary?
Charles the Bold and Rene II of Lorraine pretty much hated each other so I can not seeing the first EVER agreeing to marry his daughter and heiress to the other (and rightly as Rene would be the one to benefit more from the match).
In OTL Rene was NEVER taken in consideration as husband for Marie of Burgundy while Nicholas was in the first places of the list of potential sons-in-law of Charles the Bold
 
Charles the Bold and Rene II of Lorraine pretty much hated each other so I can not seeing the first EVER agreeing to marry his daughter and heiress to the other (and rightly as Rene would be the one to benefit more from the match).
The ATL change starts on 6 January 1477 when a frostbitten Charles the bold is brought before Renee II in nancy.

The dukes of lorraine where pretty much split in the league of the public weal John II of lorrain fought on the burgundian side his dad Renee fought on the french king side.

Renee II flip flopped with good reasons, he first allowed burgundian passage but changed sized when Charles the bold started garrison troops on his land. So they did not really hate one another. More being Charles being a dick and trying to steal his lands and Renee II being pragmatic. Let's assuma he keeps that pragmatisme and realizes Louis XI is going to turn agains thim to moment Charles is dead.

Do you think Charles would change his mind afther some time in prison and seeing his daughter sign the great privilege roughly 1 month afther his capture? Do you think the great privilege could still be written with Charles alive?

In OTL Rene was NEVER taken in consideration as husband for Marie of Burgundy while Nicholas was in the first places of the list of potential sons-in-law of Charles the Bold
Well Nicholas died in 1473 (4 years prior) and and charles is in Renee's nicer dungeon, so I would argue he is slightly better arguing position this time.

Basicly the deal to the french king is Renee, marries Mary the rich meaning the habsburgs can't marry her, meaning the thread of a invasion of the emperor is smaller for Louis. He also promisses their oldest daughter with a large dowry (I'm thinking abouth artois rethel and nevers perhaps Charolais (chales the bold was duke of that region before his father died). The total value still being less then Brittany. He also agrees that picardy is a part of france. and the bishopry of Liege is independant.

To Frederick and maximiliaan he promisses pretty much fealty, money and stability on their border. He straight out buys his crown with burgundian money and pays annualy for protection opening trade routes between france and the empire. Making him popular with the flemish/dutch merchants.

Let's say the flemish cities accept the marriage as it prevents war and Renee II position is pretty weak so he can't as easly reverse the great privilege as the french king or the emperor could.

Is this feasable?

Also
Suddenly the year is 1498 and the french king Charles VIII dies afther a accident.
Charles the bold is 65 but still alive (his wife margaret of York is also still alive at 52), the fate of his daughter isn't really inportant but he has a grandson and granddaughter. Does he become king of france? Let's say naturaly he would get to 71 but again can be killed.
As a place holder you can say his grandson is still named Philip (renee wanted to honor his grandfather in law apparently and is 20 upon the death of Charles VIII and his sister is still called margaret (in the marriage contract she was to be wed to Charles VIII is named afther Louis his first wife) she is 18.
The marriage never happend in favor of anne of brittany.
 
The ATL change starts on 6 January 1477 when a frostbitten Charles the bold is brought before Renee II in nancy.

The dukes of lorraine where pretty much split in the league of the public weal John II of lorrain fought on the burgundian side his dad Renee fought on the french king side.

Renee II flip flopped with good reasons, he first allowed burgundian passage but changed sized when Charles the bold started garrison troops on his land. So they did not really hate one another. More being Charles being a dick and trying to steal his lands and Renee II being pragmatic. Let's assuma he keeps that pragmatisme and realizes Louis XI is going to turn agains thim to moment Charles is dead.

Do you think Charles would change his mind afther some time in prison and seeing his daughter sign the great privilege roughly 1 month afther his capture? Do you think the great privilege could still be written with Charles alive?


Well Nicholas died in 1473 (4 years prior) and and charles is in Renee's nicer dungeon, so I would argue he is slightly better arguing position this time.

Basicly the deal to the french king is Renee, marries Mary the rich meaning the habsburgs can't marry her, meaning the thread of a invasion of the emperor is smaller for Louis. He also promisses their oldest daughter with a large dowry (I'm thinking abouth artois rethel and nevers perhaps Charolais (chales the bold was duke of that region before his father died). The total value still being less then Brittany. He also agrees that picardy is a part of france. and the bishopry of Liege is independant.

To Frederick and maximiliaan he promisses pretty much fealty, money and stability on their border. He straight out buys his crown with burgundian money and pays annualy for protection opening trade routes between france and the empire. Making him popular with the flemish/dutch merchants.

Let's say the flemish cities accept the marriage as it prevents war and Renee II position is pretty weak so he can't as easly reverse the great privilege as the french king or the emperor could.

Is this feasable?

Also
Suddenly the year is 1498 and the french king Charles VIII dies afther a accident.
Charles the bold is 65 but still alive (his wife margaret of York is also still alive at 52), the fate of his daughter isn't really inportant but he has a grandson and granddaughter. Does he become king of france? Let's say naturaly he would get to 71 but again can be killed.
As a place holder you can say his grandson is still named Philip (renee wanted to honor his grandfather in law apparently and is 20 upon the death of Charles VIII and his sister is still called margaret (in the marriage contract she was to be wed to Charles VIII is named afther Louis his first wife) she is 18.
The marriage never happend in favor of anne of brittany.
Well Mary not being Duchess would NOT be either in power or able to sign the great privilege (and Burgundian estates will be much more careful than OTL with Charles simply imprisoned). Margaret will be the regent during Charles’ absence not Mary. And if Charles is in Rene’s jail he will NOT be inclined to give Mary’s hand to Rene instead of Maximilian (AND WOULD NEVER EVER AGREE TO THAT KIND OF WEDDING AND DOWRY FOR HIS GRANDDAUGHTER). At that point marrying directly Mary to the Dauphin is a much better and more attractive option
 
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Well Mary not being Duchess would NOT be either in power or able to sign the great privilege (and Burgundian estates will be much more careful than OTL with Charles simply imprisoned) Margaret will be the regent during Charles’ absence not Mary.
Well Margaret was present OTL so I don't see how that would have gone any different I assume france isn't invading so the estates are going to be in a more powerful bargaining position seeming Margaret and Mary need the money. So you are definitly right but I don't see any change in the outcome.
And if Charles is in Rene’s jail he will NOT be inclined to give Mary’s hand to Rene instead of Maximilian
when Renee of anjou (Renee's grandfather) was in Philip the goods dungeon he married of his first born son an daughter to get free eventally.

also
The 4the main provisions of the great privilege says
The duchess was not allowed to marry, to declare war or levy taxes without consent of the States
She basicly would have needed permission.
(AND WOULD NEVER EVER AGREE TO THAT KIND OF WEDDING AND DOWRY FOR HIS GRANDDAUGHTER).
The idea of the dowry was based arounds Margaret's (Mary's daughter OTL dowry). It looks reasonable it only includes crownlands (leaving only the crownlands of flanders auxrrois and dijon)

Also no invasion no hurry I guess
At that point marrying directly Mary to the Dauphin is a much better and more attractive option
This was a option OTL but Charles the bold hated Louis XI and the feeling was mutual theirs less change of this happening with Charles alive not?
Louis XI did not like the idea of Mary the rich marriyng the son of the emperor when push came to shove he would probably agree with the marriage to prevent the habsburg marriage.
 
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