Charles the bold captured by Rene II in 1477

Orcot

As the title says what if Charles the bold get's captured by Rene of lorraine in 1477 in stead of dying?

Charles either surrenders or is caught half frozen and brought before Rene II of Lorraine who throws him in prison, Rene had fought on the same side as charles during the league of the public weal, however he chose the side of king Louis XI of france when Charles started claiming Nancy for himself, however Rene fears that afther the threat of burgundy dissapears Louis XI will take Anjou and Provence. (as happenend in OTL)

What does Rene of Lorraine do?
I imagen he want's to mary charles the bold only daughter and heir mary of Burgundy? Rene only marries Philippa of guelders in 1485. Rene is 26 Mary is 26 as well.
What do you think Rene would/should do? Would mary's stepmom margaret of york agree to this. Would the duchy's be open to this?
How would Charles the bold respond to this (could Charles OTL have suffered from manic-depression)
 

alexmilman

Orcot said:
As the title says what if Charles the bold get's captured by Rene of lorraine in 1477 in stead of dying?

Charles either surrenders or is caught half frozen and brought before Rene II of Lorraine who throws him in prison, Rene had fought on the same side as charles during the league of the public weal, however he chose the side of king Louis XI of france when Charles started claiming Nancy for himself, however Rene fears that afther the threat of burgundy dissapears Louis XI will take Anjou and Provence. (as happenend in OTL)

What does Rene of Lorraine do?
I imagen he want's to mary charles the bold only daughter and heir mary of Burgundy? Rene only marries Philippa of guelders in 1485. Rene is 26 Mary is 26 as well.
What do you think Rene would/should do? Would mary's stepmom margaret of york agree to this. Would the duchy's be open to this?
How would Charles the bold respond to this (could Charles OTL have suffered from manic-depression)
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Why the marriage is a "must"? The usual practice would be to arrange for a ransom and, in this case, a guarantee that Charles gives away his claim to Rene's possessions in Lorraine (or something like a peace for a predefined period of time). After being beaten at Nancy Charles does not have either army or resources needed to rebuild it practically from the scratch and as long as Rene has the Swiss on his side any new attempt to attack Lorraine is too suicidal even for Charles. There is no even a need for throwing Charles in prison if he gives his word not to try to escape: taking into the account the chivalric traditions of the Burgundian Court a word of honor could be enough.
 

Orcot

alexmilman said:
Why the marriage is a "must"? The usual practice would be to arrange for a ransom and, in this case, a guarantee that Charles gives away his claim to Rene's possessions in Lorraine (or something like a peace for a predefined period of time). After being beaten at Nancy Charles does not have either army or resources needed to rebuild it practically from the scratch and as long as Rene has the Swiss on his side any new attempt to attack Lorraine is too suicidal even for Charles. There is no even a need for throwing Charles in prison if he gives his word not to try to escape: taking into the account the chivalric traditions of the Burgundian Court a word of honor could be enough.
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If burgundy falls Louis is going to target Rene next so it is in his best intrest if Burgundy survives. Burgundy was in a bad state so demanding a ransom would make it easier for Louis to invade burgundy again making the future of Rene uncertain. also with mary as his wife rene has a better claim of inheriting Anjou then charles IV of maine.
But perhaps he could be persueded to grease the marriage between Mary and Maximiliaan in return for protection this would be the safe bad. But to get the biggest glory he should mary her himself
 

alexmilman

Orcot said:
If burgundy falls Louis is going to target Rene next so it is in his best intrest if Burgundy survives. Burgundy was in a bad state so demanding a ransom would make it easier for Louis to invade burgundy again making the future of Rene uncertain. also with mary as his wife rene has a better claim of inheriting Anjou then charles IV of maine.
But perhaps he could be persueded to grease the marriage between Mary and Maximiliaan in return for protection this would be the safe bad. But to get the biggest glory he should mary her himself
Click to expand...
Sounds reasonable but look at it from a different perspective. The critical military factor in the schema were the Swiss and they were siding with Rene because having any major power as their neighbor would be to their disadvantage and this applied to France just as well as to Burgundy. Seriously weakened Burgundy would not be a threat for them but France attacking the Lorraine would. Louis was presumably intelligent enough to understand that getting to war with the Swiss with the army he had (mostly the knights) would not be a good idea.

Now, as far as attacking Burgundy, 1st, he did need a good excuse (which he had after Charles’ death). Then, which part of Burgundy would he attack? The Flanders (including Artois, etc.) were the most attractive target but, even with Charles’ army being destroyed and Charles being short of the funds these provinces had been rich and strong enough to put an effective resistance and, some of them being a part of the HRE, they could even expect the imperial interference even if it would not amount to much. OTOH, Louis had numerous supporters there while Charles had some suppressed opposition and this region was the richest of the targets. Attacking the Duchy of Burgundy would be easier but did not make too much sense as long as Charles did not have a son and attacking County of Burgundy had a potential risk of bringing the Swiss and an emperor into the picture. Which does not mean that Louis would not attack Burgundy but most probably this would not happen in the area about which Rene would care.

Marrying Charles’ daughter would put Rene in a precarious position vs. his Swiss allies: they were fighting against the possibility of having uninterrupted Burgundian lands and now this is what happening due to the marriage.

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Orcot

alexmilman said:
Sounds reasonable but look at it from a different perspective. The critical military factor in the schema were the Swiss and they were siding with Rene because having any major power as their neighbor would be to their disadvantage and this applied to France just as well as to Burgundy. Seriously weakened Burgundy would not be a threat for them but France attacking the Lorraine would. Louis was presumably intelligent enough to understand that getting to war with the Swiss with the army he had (mostly the knights) would not be a good idea.
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Was Charles really hated by the Swiss?
By the third failure he was more of a source of steady income and a prestige boost for the Swiss, also they are mercenairies pay them should be the end of the story perhaps this could include a peacedeal recognizing the borders of switzerland and deal for extra trade between burgundy to italy trough switzerland (creating toll revenue) for the remainer of Charles the bold live. In the background they might think abouth a French invasion resulting in a 4the payday.

Marrying Charles’ daughter would put Rene in a precarious position vs. his Swiss allies: they were fighting against the possibility of having uninterrupted Burgundian lands and now this is what happening due to the marriage.
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From rene II perspective becoming the leader of a uninterupted burgundy could be a good thing but France and the holy roman empire might not like it.

But nobody is in a real hurry Let's say the negotiations runs for at least 3 years. France would probably like this as it means Charles the bold can't produce male heirs The Emperor also has things on his plate and his intrest conflict with those of Rene II.(a ally) This means his western border is safe and he can focus on the east
1477-1480 now Rene (I) of Anjou has died.
Who would be the Burgundian regent in the meantime? Marie of Burgundy? This means the great privilege is still signed. A longer regency might mean the lowcountries slowly turning into a republic.
Would france eventualy start looking to italy restoring their relations or would burgundy dominate the politcal agenda. (every year Charles is in prison is a year he can't produce male heirs (He would be 47 by then).
 
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Orcot

Could Rene II of Lorraine demand a wedding between himself and mary of Burgundy and ask Alsace as a dowry and then sell that dowry (before Marie dies) to the emperor Frederick?
 
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