Charles IV of France has a surviving son

[VVD0D95]

Charles IV of France married Blanche of Burgundy in 1308, and they had two children Philip born 1314, and Joan born 1315, in 1322, Charles annulled their marriage. Philip otl died in 1322 around the time or just before the marriage was annulled I believe. If Philip was still alive around the time his father considered annulling the marriage, what happens to his status? is he still considered the legal heir to the throne, does Charles look to marry again?

 

[Mike Louis]

I would think that Philippe would still be the legal heir if only because trying to screw him out of the throne on account of an annulment would needlessly open up a chaotic Pandora's upon France on Charles IV's death.

 

[VVD0D95]

This is very true. He'd be of age when Charles died as well, which would make his reign fascinating considering the issues facing him. Edward iii wouldn't be able to claim the throne, and likely might be forced into some
Sort of compromise.

 

[Jonathan]

What about having Prince Louis (born and died March 1324) survive child birth?

As grandson of Henry VII, Holy Roman Emperor, he will have allies in the East and could strike a claim for a Capet Holy Roman Emperor, similar to his father.

He would be 4 years old, if Charles IV died same as OTL and would need a regent, which could come in the form of his older half brother Philip, his uncle John of Bohemia, or cousin Prince Wenceslaus (OTL King Charles IV, HRE)

Possible wife:
- Isabella of England, eldest daughter of King Edward III of England and Philippa of Hainault. This could appease Edward who was nephew of Charles IV and inherited a claim to the French Throne, through his mother Isabella of France
- Joan of England, three years older then Louis, younger sister of King Edward III of England, as youngest daughter of Edward II of England and Isabella of France. This marriage would need to be by proxy before the Treaty of Edinburgh–Northampton
- Blanche of Navarre (OTL second wife of King Philip VI) She belonged to the House of Évreux, a cadet branch of the House of Capet
- Eleanor of Portugal, daughter of Afonso IV of Portugal and Beatrice of Castile, connects France to the Iberian region.
- Constance or Eleanor of Sicily, both daughters of Peter II of Sicily

 

[VVD0D95]

What about having Prince Louis (born and died March 1324) survive child birth?

As grandson of Henry VII, Holy Roman Emperor, he will have allies in the East and could strike a claim for a Capet Holy Roman Emperor, similar to his father.

He would be 4 years old, if Charles IV died same as OTL and would need a regent, which could come in the form of his older half brother Philip, his uncle John of Bohemia, or cousin Prince Wenceslaus (OTL King Charles IV, HRE)

Possible wife:
- Isabella of England, eldest daughter of King Edward III of England and Philippa of Hainault. This could appease Edward who was nephew of Charles IV and inherited a claim to the French Throne, through his mother Isabella of France
- Joan of England, three years older then Louis, younger sister of King Edward III of England, as youngest daughter of Edward II of England and Isabella of France. This marriage would need to be by proxy before the Treaty of Edinburgh–Northampton
- Blanche of Navarre (OTL second wife of King Philip VI) She belonged to the House of Évreux, a cadet branch of the House of Capet
- Eleanor of Portugal, daughter of Afonso IV of Portugal and Beatrice of Castile, connects France to the Iberian region.
- Constance or Eleanor of Sicily, both daughters of Peter II of Sicily

Hmm Louis works as well, I'm leaning toward either Isabella of England or Eleanor of Portugal, both seem like very interesting options, and there's nothing more interesting than the inner family feud that Isabella's marriage would bring.​

 

[ByzantineLover]

I've been thinking of this, and tow/three other candidates I can think of for *Louis XI's bride would be either Isabella of Aragon (b. 1323, d. 1327 IOTL), second daughter of King Alfonso IV of Aragon, or either Margaret or Matilda, daughters of Robert the Bruce and Elizabeth de Burgh, as part of the Auld Alliance.

Thoughts?

 

[VVD0D95]

I've been thinking of this, and tow/three other candidates I can think of for *Louis XI's bride would be either Isabella of Aragon (b. 1323, d. 1327 IOTL), second daughter of King Alfonso IV of Aragon, or either Margaret or Matilda, daughters of Robert the Bruce and Elizabeth de Burgh, as part of the Auld Alliance.

Thoughts?

Oooh, I quite like the idea of Margaret marrying Louis, though this was during the time Scotland was still under an interdict was it not? I suppose if the regents want the marriage, they can always put some pressure on the Pope down Avignon way to remove the interdict.

 

[ByzantineLover]

Oooh, I quite like the idea of Margaret marrying Louis, though this was during the time Scotland was still under an interdict was it not? I suppose if the regents want the marriage, they can always put some pressure on the Pope down Avignon way to remove the interdict.

I'm not sure, but I think the interdict (or a interdict anyway) might have been removed from Scotland in 1320 after the Declaration of Arbroath was signed.

 

[VVD0D95]

I'm not sure, but I think the interdict (or a interdict anyway) might have been removed from Scotland in 1320 after the Declaration of Arbroath was signed.

Ah this is very true. But yeah, seeing Louis married off to Margaret of Scotland would make things very interesting, and definitely give him a stake in things come the second war of independence.

 

[ByzantineLover]

I've thought about this again, and if we're going with both of Charles IV's known sons surviving, perhaps TTL's Philip VI could end up marrying Joan of Penthievre, thus giving him a claim and/or stake in TTL's War of Breton Succession. Apparently IOTL, Duke John III hated his half-brother, John of Montfort so much that he tried leaving the duchy to the King of France himself, but the Breton nobles objected.

As for Louis, in this situation, I'm not entirely sure.

 

[VVD0D95]

I've thought about this again, and if we're going with both of Charles IV's known sons surviving, perhaps TTL's Philip VI could end up marrying Joan of Penthievre, thus giving him a claim and/or stake in TTL's War of Breton Succession. Apparently IOTL, Duke John III hated his half-brother, John of Montfort so much that he tried leaving the duchy to the King of France himself, but the Breton nobles objected.

As for Louis, in this situation, I'm not entirely sure.

#
Now that would be interesting. In your opinion is it more or less interesting having both brothers surviving, or just the one kid? If the one, which son should survive?

 

[ByzantineLover]

#
Now that would be interesting. In your opinion is it more or less interesting having both brothers surviving, or just the one kid? If the one, which son should survive?

Both brothers. Philip could get tangled up with Edward III over Aquitaine and Brittany while Louis could try to get himself elected as Holy Roman Emperor via his relationship to Emperor Henry VII, just as his father did.

 

[VVD0D95]

Both brothers. Philip could get tangled up with Edward III over Aquitaine and Brittany while Louis could try to get himself elected as Holy Roman Emperor via his relationship to Emperor Henry VII, just as his father did.

Alright xlss would Louis be able to hold onto the position

 

[ByzantineLover]

I'm not sure if this counts as necro-ing. I've thought about this more, and I now think it might be more 'interesting' for Louis to survive and become King in 1328. As for who *Louis XI might marry, I have a few candidates:

* Isabella of Aragon, youngest daughter of King Alfonso IV of Aragon (b. 1323, d. 1327 IOTL)
* Joanna of Naples (b. 1326), eldest grandaughter and heir of King Robert of Naples.
* Marie of Valois, eldest daughter of Philip of Valois (OTL Philip VI). b. 1326, d. 1333 and betrothed to John, son of John III, Duke of Brabant IOTL.
* Joanna (b. 1322) or Margaret (b. 1323) of Brabant, eldest daughters of John III, Duke of Brabant. IOTL, Joanna became Duchess on her father's death and Margaret's grandson became Duke after Joanna's death.

I thought again about a match with Constance of Sicily, but realised the Sicilian nobles and people would not tolerate another French monarch.

 

[VVD0D95]

I'm not sure if this counts as necro-ing. I've thought about this more, and I now think it might be more 'interesting' for Louis to survive and become King in 1328. As for who *Louis XI might marry, I have a few candidates:

* Isabella of Aragon, youngest daughter of King Alfonso IV of Aragon (b. 1323, d. 1327 IOTL)
* Joanna of Naples (b. 1326), eldest grandaughter and heir of King Robert of Naples.
* Marie of Valois, eldest daughter of Philip of Valois (OTL Philip VI). b. 1326, d. 1333 and betrothed to John, son of John III, Duke of Brabant IOTL.
* Joanna (b. 1322) or Margaret (b. 1323) of Brabant, eldest daughters of John III, Duke of Brabant. IOTL, Joanna became Duchess on her father's death and Margaret's grandson became Duke after Joanna's death.

I thought again about a match with Constance of Sicily, but realised the Sicilian nobles and people would not tolerate another French monarch.

Interesting, so there'd be a few years worth of regency then w hen he comes to the throne in 1328? I think Marie of Valois or Joanna of Naples are prime candidates.

 

[ByzantineLover]

Interesting, so there'd be a few years worth of regency then w hen he comes to the throne in 1328? I think Marie of Valois or Joanna of Naples are prime candidates.

Of these two, Marie of Valois is probably the 'safer' option, since if Louis is betrothed to Joanna of Naples, the Angevins of Hungary (who had as good a claim to Naples, even better, than Robert and his descendants) might have something to say about it.

EDIT: Of course, it may depend on how much influence Philip of Valois has during the regency as opposed to Joan of Evreux.

 

[VVD0D95]

Of these two, Marie of Valois is probably the 'safer' option, since if Louis is betrothed to Joanna of Naples, the Angevins of Hungary (who had as good a claim to Naples, even better, than Robert and his descendants) might have something to say about it.

Marie of Valois it is then. A safe marriage and a good way to keep Philip in hand.

 

[ByzantineLover]

Marie of Valois it is then. A safe marriage and a good way to keep Philip in hand.

I just said that it might be the safer option. To me, a foreign match would be more exciting, especially if there is a chance of inheriting either Brabant or Naples.

 

[VVD0D95]

I just said that it might be the safer option. To me, a foreign match would be more exciting, especially if there is a chance of inheriting either Brabant or Naples.

I know you did aha. And this is true, I guess, when Marie dies as otl, Louis could then be married off to Joanna of Brabant

 

[ByzantineLover]

I know you did aha. And this is true, I guess, when Marie dies as otl, Louis could then be married off to Joanna of Brabant

There's still a chance for Louis to be married to someone older than Marie, especially if there is pressure for the king, the last male of the direct Capet branch, to get breeding ASAP.