Charles II of Spain, no physical/mental deficiencies?

A lurker to these hallowed boards. I find myself mulling over the war of Spanish Succession, and can't find any threads that address my exact line of thought.

Suppose Charles II of Spain, famous for his physical, mental, and emotional disabilities, had not been so handicapped.
Or suppose rather, that his half-brother, Balthasar Charles, had succeeded the throne as Charles II instead, rather than dying to smallpox in his teenage years.

In either case, the main POD being the continuation of the Hapsburg line in Spain, and an absence of War of Spanish Succession. What will a competent (if not fantastic) Spanish monarch do with the waning days of the Spanish Empire?

Balthasar Charles surviving would lead to a clean succession from Philip IV, while OTL's Charles II would still have to deal with his mother's disastrous regency, competent or not.
 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=161028

As touched on there, the Habsburg's long-term prospects were very bad by this point - even if we posit a capable heir, whether Balthasar Charles or a person who didn't exist OTL, the Habsburgs only had 1 in 3 children making it to adulthood by this period, and nearly all of them were flawed - a preference for endogamy had been too entrenched for too long. What's needed is outbreeding, as I suggested in that thread :)

I suppose what's remarkable about OTL's Carlos II is that, despite all his problems, he didn't die.
 
As touched on there, the Habsburg's long-term prospects were very bad by this point - even if we posit a capable heir, whether Balthasar Charles or a person who didn't exist OTL, the Habsburgs only had 1 in 3 children making it to adulthood by this period, and nearly all of them were flawed - a preference for endogamy had been too entrenched for too long. What's needed is outbreeding, as I suggested in that thread :)

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That is said quite often about the Spanish Hapsburgs, and it is completley wrong. Genetic inbreedng is a lottery, but the simple fact is than the non spanish Habpsburgs were exactly as inbred and the family survives today. It happened in 1700; Spain only needed to hang out two or three generations before the general European dinastic obsessions began to recede into something more rational.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
That is said quite often about the Spanish Hapsburgs, and it is completley wrong. Genetic inbreedng is a lottery, but the simple fact is than the non spanish Habpsburgs were exactly as inbred and the family survives today. It happened in 1700; Spain only needed to hang out two or three generations before the general European dinastic obsessions began to recede into something more rational.

Let's not forget Charlkes had a healthy sister, whom married her own uncle and got a child whom survived to adulthood and to get three children (through all died in childhood). Like you said we could easily see a healthy Charles II or a healthy brother survive.
 
That is said quite often about the Spanish Hapsburgs, and it is completley wrong. Genetic inbreedng is a lottery, but the simple fact is than the non spanish Hapsburgs were exactly as inbred and the family survives today. It happened in 1700; Spain only needed to hang out two or three generations before the general European dinastic obsessions began to recede into something more rational.

I agree that genetic inbreeding is a lottery, but I'm sorry to nitpick however that is not quite true, the family which survives is the house of Habsburg-Lorraine, a branch of the house of Lorraine. The last female members of the house of Habsburg married into the house of Lorraine, Maria Theresia married Francis Stephen (duke of Lorraine, later Grand Duke of Tuscany) and the younger sister of Maria Theresia married a younger brother of Francis Stephen , however only the marriage of Maria Theresia and Francis Stephen had surviving children; every member of the house of Habsburg-Lorraine is descended from them.
 
I agree that genetic inbreeding is a lottery, but I'm sorry to nitpick however that is not quite true, the family which survives is the house of Habsburg-Lorraine, a branch of the house of Lorraine. The last female members of the house of Habsburg married into the house of Lorraine, Maria Theresia married Francis Stephen (duke of Lorraine, later Grand Duke of Tuscany) and the younger sister of Maria Theresia married a younger brother of Francis Stephen , however only the marriage of Maria Theresia and Francis Stephen had surviving children; every member of the house of Habsburg-Lorraine is descended from them.

Ahhh.... and those daughters were adopted, then? Just because a girl changes her surname with marriage, it does not change her genetics. They are the direct descendants of the Habsburgs, and they are living today withouth any apparent genetis disability.
 
Ahhh.... and those daughters were adopted, then? Just because a girl changes her surname with marriage, it does not change her genetics. They are the direct descendants of the Habsburgs, and they are living today withouth any apparent genetis disability.

While I agree with you about their survival (by female line, of course) it's interesting to notice that Maria Theresa was the fruit of the two first generation of Austrian Habsburgs who didn't marry into the family since Maximilian II. Her father (Charles VI) married a woman from the Brunswick dynasty who was Protestant (with hardly any ancestor related to the Habsburgs). And Charles VI himself was the of the third wife of Leopold I, Eleonore of Neuburg, other woman that had few Habsburg blood. So the fact that they stopped the inbreeding can be considered as a factor in their survival.
 
Ahhh.... and those daughters were adopted, then? Just because a girl changes her surname with marriage, it does not change her genetics. They are the direct descendants of the Habsburgs, and they are living today withouth any apparent genetis disability.

Genetically you're right, dynastically is a bit more complicated, because Charles II had two sisters with children, the eldest was married to the king of France (and had most surviving issue) and the youngest married Leopold I (Austrian Habsburgs), does this mean that the Spanish Habsburgs survived through the Bourbons and the Austrian Habsburgs? Because this would basically be the same thing as the situation with the house of Habsburg-Lorraine...
 

Susano

Banned
I agree that genetic inbreeding is a lottery, but I'm sorry to nitpick however that is not quite true, the family which survives is the house of Habsburg-Lorraine, a branch of the house of Lorraine.
NO. Not only is this argument genetci nonsense, as Rakasha said, but its primarily a branch (the last surviving one) of the House of Habsburg. It IS the House of Habsburg, by generally accepted and recogncied (well, after a war of succession, but that was just custom at the time :D ) matrilinearity.
 
NO. Not only is this argument genetci nonsense, as Rakasha said, but its primarily a branch (the last surviving one) of the House of Habsburg. It IS the House of Habsburg, by generally accepted and recogncied (well, after a war of succession, but that was just custom at the time :D ) matrilinearity.
Yes, but the same genitic arguements could be applied to the Spanish Habsburgs regarding the Bourbons and Austrian Habsburgs...
Matrilinear it is considered to be the continuation of the more prestigious 'imperial' Habsburg family, but patrilinear they are the (continuation) house of Lorraine ((senior) Vaudemont branch). Besides since the offspring of the marriage of Maria Theresia and Francis Stephen are the only surviving members of matrilinear the house of Habsburg and patrilinear the house of Lorraine (Vaudemont), could one argue that these houses were ''merged''?
 

Susano

Banned
Yes, but the same genitic arguements could be applied to the Spanish Habsburgs regarding the Bourbons and Austrian Habsburgs...
Matrilinear it is considered to be the continuation of the more prestigious 'imperial' Habsburg family, but patrilinear they are the (continuation) house of Lorraine ((senior) Vaudemont branch). Besides since the offspring of the marriage of Maria Theresia and Francis Stephen are the only surviving members of matrilinear the house of Habsburg and patrilinear the house of Lorraine (Vaudemont), could one argue that these houses were ''merged''?

Well, yes, they were. Hence why I said "primarily". At best the ensuing family is called "Habsburg-Lorraine", but usually its just "Habsburg". In this one case among all others in Europe at that time, matrilinearity won out, so its just wrong to say that Habsburg ended and was absorbed into Lorraine. Because such social matters are all about recognition and public acceptance.
 
While I agree with you about their survival (by female line, of course) it's interesting to notice that Maria Theresa was the fruit of the two first generation of Austrian Habsburgs who didn't marry into the family since Maximilian II. Her father (Charles VI) married a woman from the Brunswick dynasty who was Protestant (with hardly any ancestor related to the Habsburgs). And Charles VI himself was the of the third wife of Leopold I, Eleonore of Neuburg, other woman that had few Habsburg blood. So the fact that they stopped the inbreeding can be considered as a factor in their survival.

True, and if anything an understatement. Yes, all it takes is a single incident of outbreeding to unexpress a lot of harmful homozygous recessives again, but that single incident wasn't going to happen among the Spanish Habsburgs until it was forced. The last time they married someone farther out than first cousin was 1550; the harmful recessives accumulate with each generation, there's no other way to reset them.

Yes, the modern Habsburg-Lorraines are healthy, relatively ordinary people - because they abandoned the practice of mating exclusively with their close kin about 300 years ago. That idea doesn't even seem to have occurred to Charles II's contemporaries.
 
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