Charles II had legitimate childern

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Teejay, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. Teejay Gone Fishin'

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    The POD is that Catherine of Braganza gives Charles II a number of children and the oldest surviving son succeeds Charles II to the throne of England. The children would be raised as Anglicans and the heir would be likely a High Church Anglican. The heir to Charles II would be called either Charles III, James II, Henry IX or even John (Catherine's father) II.

    In this TL England would likely become an absolutist monarchy, allied to France and enemies of the Dutch Republic.

    I am interested in your thoughts about this?
     
  2. Noblesse Oblige Reaper Squad Member

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    GG mate, you've just caused the Second English Civil War...

    ...In all seriousness, while within the timeframe you could marginalize the power of Parliament, I don't think it's possible to turn England Absolutist, especially considering that his father (Charles I) botched that attempt and he couldn't get ahead of the situation. Your best bet is really to just keep Parliament from getting too powerful and that would be more than sufficient. Other than that, being allied to France and enemies to the Dutch is not too bad an issue, Charles II was already pro-French and anti-Dutch anyway, and as long as the Dutch are at their height, I wouldn't expect that to change too soon.
     
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  3. ranichi17 Unabashed Targaryen Critic

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  4. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

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    Not necessarily. As Ranichi17 linked to, my Apollinis et Dianae TL was based on the idea of Charles II having a legitimate heir. While near the end I really took it off the rails (not sure what I was thinking with the Crusade) I think before that it was pretty realistic. OTL England under Charles II and James II was sliding towards absolutism and it was only the Glorious Revolution that stopped it. Now I'm unsure if Parliament could be completely ignored/done away with, but I think it could vastly reduced, not unlike the Carolean and Gustavian eras in Sweden. However, if the Crown could make itself financially independent, like Sweden or Portugal did, then I think it could rule without Parliament and use the Judiciary to establish precedent for absolute rule.
     
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  5. Valena Well-Known Member

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    Rule of cool, darling, rule of cool.
     
  6. Jonathan Corbynite with fire in heart & food in belly

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    There are said to have been at least three miscarriages. So you could imagine:
    - Charlotte, Princess Royal (B. 1661)
    - Henrietta Catherine (B. 1662)
    - Prince John James of Wales (B. 1663)
     
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  7. Timaeus Βασιλεύς τῆς Ζωσῠνῐ́ᾱς

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    I thought this was about old el Hechizado lol. IDK how he'd have had children. :p :p :p
     
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  8. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

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    Couple of things; Charles and Catherine married in 1662, so the earliest child would be born in 1663. Also the first confirmed pregnancy was in 1666, the '63 one more rumor then anything else.
     
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  9. funnyhat Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I was wondering what sort of black magic it would take to have that man and his poor wife have children - and what would they look like?
     
  10. Jonathan Corbynite with fire in heart & food in belly

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    My bad, I was going by the date of 23 June 1661, when the marriage contract was signed.

    And confused by the comment that Catherine became pregnant and miscarried at least three times, and during a severe illness in 1663, she imagined, for a time, that she had given birth. Charles comforted her by telling her she had indeed given birth to two sons and a daughter.
     
  11. jkarr Well-Known Member

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    Still awaiting the next installment of Charles the Great
     
  12. Valena Well-Known Member

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    Well, Constantine attempted not one but two or three projects since then, but it's nice to see the work being so liked/having its fandom.
     
  13. ByzantineLover Well-Known Member

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    If Charles and Catherine manage to have at least one son, do you think he will be required to marry a Protestant noblewoman? Or would a Catholic, like, say, a surviving Marie Therese of France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Thérèse_of_France_(1667–1672) ) be allowed?

    I could see something like this:

    King James II of England (b. 1666) - Marie Therese of France (b. 1667) / Maria Amalia of Brandenburg (b. 1670) / Sophia Charlotte of Hanover (b. 1668)
    Henrietta Louise (b. 1668) - Louis, the Grand Dauphin (b. 1661) / King Frederick IV of Denmark (b. 1671) / William III of Orange (b. 1650)
    John/Charles/Edward, Duke of (available dukedom) (b. 1669) - Maria Amalia of Brandenburg (b. 1670) / Sophia Charlotte of Hanover (b. 1668)
     
  14. Valena Well-Known Member

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    Marie Therese de France was earmarked by her parents for Spain, so it would be (whatever princess is suitable) for the Prince of Wales (in A&D we went for Austrian match, though Sophia Charlotte of Hanover would work also), and Marie Anne d'Orleans (OTL Duchess of Savoy) for the Duke of Gloucester.
    Mademoiselle d'Orleans (OTL Queen of Spain) may be considered as theoretical Queen of Britain as well, though she is too old here.

    A French (cousin) match may be (and likely will be) in the cards in any case.

    Match with William of Orange is out, he won't wait for THAT long (same with Dauphin), but Danish match is perfect for Princess Royal.
     
  15. Emperor Constantine 21st century Monarchist

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    Well, there wasn't all that many high rank Protestant Princesses, so a Catholic match is most likely. As for Marie Thérése, she was prematched to her uncle Carlos II, so no dice there. We used an Austrian Archduchess (the Stuarts seemed to have a massive hard-on for either an Infanta of Spain or an Archduchess of Austria) but an Orléans cousin might work, as would an Italian match (perhaps Anna Maria Luisa de' Medici). Charles II was well-known for his dislike of "cold Northern ladies" (what he called the German Princesses) so unless he has no other options, I think a German match is out as well. I think that's about it, unless we get into TTL brides.

    What about one of the Duke of York's daughters for Gloucester? Wouldn't bring many advantages but it's a possibility. But definitely agree about Denmark'; right age and would be a Protestant marriage after several Catholic ones.
     
  16. VVD0D95 Lemmy is God.

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    Why did the Stuart’s have such a hard on for the habsburgs?
     
  17. FillyofDelphi Well-Known Member

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    Power is generally considered a sexually desirable characteristic.
     
  18. Valena Well-Known Member

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    That rebuttal may well end chances of ambitious Sophia to see her daughter as the Queen of England (in our work she had to settle for the Duke of Cambridge who may or may not survive plague TTL).
    While other Germans are definitely out (Brandenburg is the only high ranked Protestant match but it brings relatively nothing), there may be some considerations regarding Sophie Charlotte depending of how pissed off Charles II is at her mother. But no Queen material, definitely. Duchess of Gloucester/Cambridge if he survives - very likely.
     
  19. ByzantineLover Well-Known Member

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    So, based on feedback, here's the new lineup:

    King James II of England (b. 1666) - Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria (b. 1669) / Anne Marie d'Orleans (b. 1669)
    Henrietta Louise (b. 1668) - King Frederick IV of Denmark (b. 1671)
    John/Charles/Henry, Duke of Gloucester (b. 1669) - Anne Marie d'Orleans (b. 1669) / Sophia Charlotte of Hanover (b. 1668)
     
  20. Valena Well-Known Member

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    Then it is likely either Anne Marie d'Orleans or her elder sister, Mlle d'Orleans, as Leopold I won't be marrying his only daughter with Spanish rights to a heretic. In A&D we used a fictitious younger sister, so Spanish rights were not the big deal they'll be TTL.
    However - if we are speaking about quasi-Habsburg brides, then there is this Princess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Sophia_of_Neuburg - yes, she's a German but she is an in-law of Leopold I, which is good if you can't get the Archduchess proper. Any of the brood of her younger sisters would work as well.