Charles Frederick, Duke of Holstein Gottorp succeeds as King of Sweden?

So, I have always been interested by the fact that Charles Frederick, Duke of Holstein-Gottorp, as oldest son of Hedevig Sophia and Frederick IV, Duke of Holstein Gottorp, was not given enough support to claim the throne, despite being the senior heir to Charles XII. What I am wondering is what would be needed for him and not his aunt Ulricka Eleanora to be recognised as Charles XII's heir and for him to be proclaimed and crowned King after Charles dies? Furthermore what would his ascension to the throne of Sweden change?
 
Great topic for a thread!

I'm no expert on this but I think that Ulrika Eleanora only took the throne because her husband pushed her to - and then took it for himself. Had she been more minded to follow the correct order of succession then there wouldn't need to be any conflict as Charles Frederick is the rightful heir.

I don't know enough about Charles Frederick to know what sort of King he would have made though if he had taken the throne then he wouldn't have gone to Russia in search of Russian support for his claims and wouldn't have married Peter the Great's daughter, Anna. One question then is who would Anna herself have married? Might she have survived childbirth and had more than one healthy child? If so then she might have been the chosen candidate for the Russian throne in 1730 when Peter II died.
 
Great topic for a thread!

I'm no expert on this but I think that Ulrika Eleanora only took the throne because her husband pushed her to - and then took it for himself. Had she been more minded to follow the correct order of succession then there wouldn't need to be any conflict as Charles Frederick is the rightful heir.

I don't know enough about Charles Frederick to know what sort of King he would have made though if he had taken the throne then he wouldn't have gone to Russia in search of Russian support for his claims and wouldn't have married Peter the Great's daughter, Anna. One question then is who would Anna herself have married? Might she have survived childbirth and had more than one healthy child? If so then she might have been the chosen candidate for the Russian throne in 1730 when Peter II died.

And that would of course massively change the Russian succession in of itself as well. Hmm, for Charles Frederick is he more likely to make a Russian marriage, though if he sits the throne I suppose he won't need it unless as a counter to anymore threats circa the great northern war. Would the nobles attempt to institute a constitutional monarch as they did otl? Or might Charles have more ability to continue exercising control?
 
I believe that a big factor in Ulrika Eleanora securing the throne was her agreement to abolish absolute monarchy. I'm guessing that if Charles Frederick were to take the throne he would probably have to make a similar agreement - though of course once secure on the throne he might try not to stick to it - especially as he was the rightful heir.

As for his marriage, I think there would need to be a big incentive from Russia for him to marry Anna Petrovna. Perhaps he would express willingness, provided Sweden received back some of the territory it had lost in the war. If he didn't go the Russian marriage route, then as a reigning monarch of a still reasonably prestigious Kingdom he wouldn't be short of offers!

Assuming he didn't make a Russian marriage (and therefore Peter III was never born) one fascinating question is what would have happened to Catherine the Great. I know that her mother was always angling for her to marry Peter long before Empress Elizabeth made him her heir as he was the perceived heir to the Swedish throne. If Charles Frederick had a son, Catherine's mother would probably have tried to have married her daughter to him so we could perhaps end up with Catherine the Great of Sweden instead!
 
I believe that a big factor in Ulrika Eleanora securing the throne was her agreement to abolish absolute monarchy. I'm guessing that if Charles Frederick were to take the throne he would probably have to make a similar agreement - though of course once secure on the throne he might try not to stick to it - especially as he was the rightful heir.

As for his marriage, I think there would need to be a big incentive from Russia for him to marry Anna Petrovna. Perhaps he would express willingness, provided Sweden received back some of the territory it had lost in the war. If he didn't go the Russian marriage route, then as a reigning monarch of a still reasonably prestigious Kingdom he wouldn't be short of offers!

Assuming he didn't make a Russian marriage (and therefore Peter III was never born) one fascinating question is what would have happened to Catherine the Great. I know that her mother was always angling for her to marry Peter long before Empress Elizabeth made him her heir as he was the perceived heir to the Swedish throne. If Charles Frederick had a son, Catherine's mother would probably have tried to have married her daughter to him so we could perhaps end up with Catherine the Great of Sweden instead!

Oh very interesting, and of course he could institute something similar to Gustav III's counter coup of 1772, should things go down the shit pipe for the nobles.

A marriage between his son and Catherine would be fascinating, though I don't see the nobles accepting her as monarch aha. How about a marriage to Anne, Princess Royal? Or perhaps to a German Princess whose father was allied to France? After all, wasn't Charles XII quite French leaning? Would Charles XIII follow a similar path?
 
Karl Friedrich wouldn't need to make the same agreements as Ulrika did. She had to make those agreements in exchange for the support that those nobles would give her against Karl Friedrich. However, Karl Friedrich, as the senior legitimate heir, wouldn't need to make the exact same agreements. Especially if Carl XII gets it enshrined in law that his Holstein nephew is to be his successor. If not, there's still enough people who might prefer Karl over Ulrika Eleonora (who has her sex (even though Sweden has had a queen-regnant before) and her childlessness working against her). Another reasoning, later applied, was that OTL Pyotr III (Karl Friedrich Ulrich) couldn't inherit the Swedish throne after Friedrich of Hesse because of his ties to Russia. Sweden used the uncertainty of the Russian succession as a reason to block Pyotr's candidacy (Yelizaveta Petrovna didn't really help matters, since by the time the Swedish delegates came to offer the crown to Pyotr, she'd already named him as heir to Russia (even though she knew he would be the first logical choice).

As to Karl Friedrich, if he succeeds as TTL Carl XIII, the chances of him marrying a Russian grand duchess is slim to none. Anna and Yelizaveta Petrovna weren't considered highly abroad for the ambiguous status of their birth. As duke of Holstein marriage to Anna is fine, as king of Sweden it's unthinkable. Which leaves him needing a wife (one of Friedrich the Great's sisters perhaps (there had been the agreement that Friedrich Wilhelm I would marry Ulrika Eleonora, but when that fell through, it was transferred to her son and his daughter)?) or somewhere else?
 
Karl Friedrich wouldn't need to make the same agreements as Ulrika did. She had to make those agreements in exchange for the support that those nobles would give her against Karl Friedrich. However, Karl Friedrich, as the senior legitimate heir, wouldn't need to make the exact same agreements. Especially if Carl XII gets it enshrined in law that his Holstein nephew is to be his successor. If not, there's still enough people who might prefer Karl over Ulrika Eleonora (who has her sex (even though Sweden has had a queen-regnant before) and her childlessness working against her). Another reasoning, later applied, was that OTL Pyotr III (Karl Friedrich Ulrich) couldn't inherit the Swedish throne after Friedrich of Hesse because of his ties to Russia. Sweden used the uncertainty of the Russian succession as a reason to block Pyotr's candidacy (Yelizaveta Petrovna didn't really help matters, since by the time the Swedish delegates came to offer the crown to Pyotr, she'd already named him as heir to Russia (even though she knew he would be the first logical choice).

As to Karl Friedrich, if he succeeds as TTL Carl XIII, the chances of him marrying a Russian grand duchess is slim to none. Anna and Yelizaveta Petrovna weren't considered highly abroad for the ambiguous status of their birth. As duke of Holstein marriage to Anna is fine, as king of Sweden it's unthinkable. Which leaves him needing a wife (one of Friedrich the Great's sisters perhaps (there had been the agreement that Friedrich Wilhelm I would marry Ulrika Eleonora, but when that fell through, it was transferred to her son and his daughter)?) or somewhere else?

This is very true, so the compromises that Ulrika made included removing the absolutist monarchy I imagine? In which case, if he doesn't have to make those compromises-let's say because he was named the legal heir to his uncle- then I reckon we could avoid some of the more disastorous decisions made during the monarch without balls period. And a marriage to one of Fred the great's sisters would be good, perhaps Friedrike Wilhelmine? Of course she'd be eleven when Carl XII dies, so they'd need an early betrothal and perhaps a ringer in as soon as they think she's good to go.
 
This is very true, so the compromises that Ulrika made included removing the absolutist monarchy I imagine? In which case, if he doesn't have to make those compromises-let's say because he was named the legal heir to his uncle- then I reckon we could avoid some of the more disastorous decisions made during the monarch without balls period. And a marriage to one of Fred the great's sisters would be good, perhaps Friedrike Wilhelmine? Of course she'd be eleven when Carl XII dies, so they'd need an early betrothal and perhaps a ringer in as soon as they think she's good to go.

Of course, that's assuming that Carl XII doesn't want a different match for his heir. Carl XII himself was proposed for a Danish princess, a Polish princess and a Brunswicker girl (TTL Tsarevna of Russia), while there was also talk of him marrying La Consolatrice Louisa Stuart. I merely pointed out that Ulrika Eleonora had had an engagement to FWI, and that when that fell through, she offered her heir for his daughter. No certainty that Carl XII/Carl XIII would have the same warm and fuzzy feelings towards Prussia.
 
This is very true and given who they e just been fighting as part of the peace could we see Charles married to princess Charlotte Amalie of Denmark?
 
The easiest way to have the Holstein-Gottorps inherit is to have Frederick IV not die during the war. He had more than influence in the Swedish court and army to secure his own succession.
 
The easiest way to have the Holstein-Gottorps inherit is to have Frederick IV not die during the war. He had more than influence in the Swedish court and army to secure his own succession.

Interesting, so he'd succeed as a monarch with his wife? Or purely on his own merit?
 
If the Gottorps get the crown in 1719, they will lose all of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp to Denmark, these two details change the entire post-war politics of Northern Europe. Sweden will have a stronger monarchy, which means they avoid the Hat's Russian War, instead Sweden may ally with the Austrians in the War of Austrian's Succession and try to regain Strettin. Danish foreign policy have also changed, Holstein-Gottorp are no longer the main Danish foreign objective, so Denmark will find different goals, It's pretty clear that They can't get Scania back, so the main goals will be expansion in north Germany, but Denmark can't afford a conflict with UK.
 
If the Gottorps get the crown in 1719, they will lose all of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp to Denmark, these two details change the entire post-war politics of Northern Europe. Sweden will have a stronger monarchy, which means they avoid the Hat's Russian War, instead Sweden may ally with the Austrians in the War of Austrian's Succession and try to regain Strettin. Danish foreign policy have also changed, Holstein-Gottorp are no longer the main Danish foreign objective, so Denmark will find different goals, It's pretty clear that They can't get Scania back, so the main goals will be expansion in north Germany, but Denmark can't afford a conflict with UK.

Alright interesting, what makes you think they will lose all of Schleswig Holstein Gottorp to Denmark? The lack of Russian support for them then? Would the Russian Swedish war that was fought during the early days of Ulrika's reign be avoided then?
 
Alright interesting, what makes you think they will lose all of Schleswig Holstein Gottorp to Denmark? The lack of Russian support for them then? Would the Russian Swedish war that was fought during the early days of Ulrika's reign be avoided then?

A stronger Sweden means that the other powers want a stronger Denmark, and Russia have no interest in Sweden having a stronghold in Holstein, and yes with a strong Swedish king, the Hats doesn't get away with their moronic foreign policy, unless you're a thinking about another war than the one in the late 30ties. Charles Frederick will likely focus on the path of least resistance, which mean Prussia and Denmark will be main targets, from Prussia Sweden want as much of Pomerania as they can get away with, while they want Norway from Denmark, but there lack a opportunity for Norway, so they will go after Pomerania.
 
A stronger Sweden means that the other powers want a stronger Denmark, and Russia have no interest in Sweden having a stronghold in Holstein, and yes with a strong Swedish king, the Hats doesn't get away with their moronic foreign policy, unless you're a thinking about another war than the one in the late 30ties. Charles Frederick will likely focus on the path of least resistance, which mean Prussia and Denmark will be main targets, from Prussia Sweden want as much of Pomerania as they can get away with, while they want Norway from Denmark, but there lack a opportunity for Norway, so they will go after Pomerania.

Interesting, so a potential Pomeranian war with Prussia during the reign of Charles XIII, perhaps in the 1720s or 1730s? As for the war with Russia this was what I was on about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Pillage_of_1719-1721
 
Okay that would be really interesting. Do you think Charles XIII would allow such an attack to happen as Ulrika did otl, or would he try and fight back hard?
 
Top