charles, duke of Cambridge (born 1660) survives

Would that be preferred for Charles II, than a marriage with Portugal?

I'd imagine that with an openly Catholic king and queen, it'd be an all hands on deck sort of scenario to ensure that there isn't really a chance for a Catholic succession. They might acquiesce to Mary as dauphine, whether they'll allow Charles/James to pull the same stunt with both daughters is open to question.

Portugal might have an interest in the match - if only to get part of Katherine of Bragança's dowry back (Tangiers would be recycled for Anne's dowry, most likely). Whether the English do is another matter entirely. By the time Pedro is widowed though, at least one of her brothers might have issue, so it's not impossible that she might wind up in Lisbon. And if Pedro's OTL second wife gets recycled for Carlos II (I have a feeling Maria Sophie would be a far more docile queen for Spain than her sister was OTL), then I guess it all works out.
 
I'd imagine that with an openly Catholic king and queen, it'd be an all hands on deck sort of scenario to ensure that there isn't really a chance for a Catholic succession. They might acquiesce to Mary as dauphine, whether they'll allow Charles/James to pull the same stunt with both daughters is open to question.

Portugal might have an interest in the match - if only to get part of Katherine of Bragança's dowry back (Tangiers would be recycled for Anne's dowry, most likely). Whether the English do is another matter entirely. By the time Pedro is widowed though, at least one of her brothers might have issue, so it's not impossible that she might wind up in Lisbon. And if Pedro's OTL second wife gets recycled for Carlos II (I have a feeling Maria Sophie would be a far more docile queen for Spain than her sister was OTL), then I guess it all works out.

Hmm this is very true, otherwise I suppose a Saxon marriage would be considered. In otl Pedro got remarried in 1687, by that point Anne was 23, so I suppose if the same happens here, Charles and James, the sons of James II could well have had perhaps or two kids each
 
I wonder though. Part of the reason the elector of Saxony only married in 1666 was because Anna Sofia of Denmark was under consideration for either duchess of Gloucester or Empress. So with a POD in 1660 she might marry the elector sooner. Which means that she could have kids earlier.

That said, the age gap between Johann Georg IV and Anne is big, but 4 years isn't a huge obstacle (Johann Georg's OTL wife was 2 years older than Anne - plus she HAD kids; and Frederik IV of Denmark was 4 years younger than his wife too). I'd say Anne marrying Friedrich August would be a stretch - almost ASB. Johann Georg? Not so much. His father wanted to break Johann Georg's attachment to Mme von Rochlitz, so an older girl would mean Junior can get married sooner rather than still have to wait for a bride to mature. (This was his mother's reasoning why she pushed for the Dowager Margravine of Ansbach OTL).

OTL Johann George is not the right kind of husband the poor Anne’s deserve...
But his ATL brother maybe born a year earlier with a totally different character can be a great match for her or we will marry her to Pedro of Portugal... both options are good
 
OTL Johann George is not the right kind of husband the poor Anne’s deserve...
But his ATL brother maybe born a year earlier with a totally different character can be a great match for her or we will marry her to Pedro of Portugal... both options are good

This is very true, and of course I do think Charles of Cambridge and James of Kendal would've had kids by the time Anne's marriage is considered
 
We can have an Anne married late as Queen of Portugal or an Anne married in 82/84 to an ATL Johann George of Saxony born in late 1666 or early 1667 (after his parents married in 1665 when his mother was 17 instead of marry at 19 in late 1666 as OTL) who has a different character than his OTL counterpart (and zero interest for his OTL mistress)
 
OTL Johann George is not the right kind of husband the poor Anne’s deserve...
But his ATL brother maybe born a year earlier with a totally different character can be a great match for her or we will marry her to Pedro of Portugal... both options are good

I struggle to see how one Saxon boy is worse than the other. Johann Georg IV was in love with a court lady (who may or may not have been his half-sister) and resented his wife because he'd had to marry her instead. Johann Georg only got tangled up with SAID lady in 1691. If he marries Anne in the mid-1680s, there's every likelihood that by the time Billa von Rochlitz comes along, Johann Georg and Anne have at least one (or more) kids. Also, if its true that Anne's husband OTL had a VD which made him the problem rather than her, then rather ONE mistress than many. In fact, I could even see Anne learning to live with it (TTL she's not queen nor likely to be, plus she's not at home, so she can't throw her toys out the pram. She's probably used to it - having seen her mother and aunt suffer similar indignities).

Friedrich August, OTOH, was unfaithful to his wife on a near hourly basis (if you believe Wilhelmine of Prussia's memoirs). He's was a playboy/fratboy who became king of Poland through luck (had his brother not died, its unlikely he would've succeeded in his venture IMO). Anne would do worse being paired with him than Johann Georg. But that's just my opinion.
 
I struggle to see how one Saxon boy is worse than the other. Johann Georg IV was in love with a court lady (who may or may not have been his half-sister) and resented his wife because he'd had to marry her instead. Johann Georg only got tangled up with SAID lady in 1691. If he marries Anne in the mid-1680s, there's every likelihood that by the time Billa von Rochlitz comes along, Johann Georg and Anne have at least one (or more) kids. Also, if its true that Anne's husband OTL had a VD which made him the problem rather than her, then rather ONE mistress than many. In fact, I could even see Anne learning to live with it (TTL she's not queen nor likely to be, plus she's not at home, so she can't throw her toys out the pram. She's probably used to it - having seen her mother and aunt suffer similar indignities).

Friedrich August, OTOH, was unfaithful to his wife on a near hourly basis (if you believe Wilhelmine of Prussia's memoirs). He's was a playboy/fratboy who became king of Poland through luck (had his brother not died, its unlikely he would've succeeded in his venture IMO). Anne would do worse being paired with him than Johann Georg. But that's just my opinion.
So do you think johann George rather than Pedro ofmportugal
 
So do you think johann George rather than Pedro ofmportugal

No, that was just my weighing up of the two Saxon boys against one another. Saxony vs. Portugal is another story. There (Portugal) Anne's gotta be ready to be mom to a girl that's only a few years younger than her, as well as being wife. Some princesses of the day made the transition easily (like Mary of Modena - she managed to win over Anne and Mary IIRC, even if they were somewhat wary of her papistry. There's a story that when Mary II was leaving, she was upset (and Anne was in bed with smallpox/measles/sick), and Mary of Modena was the one who tried to console her). Others (like Maria Anna of Austria, mother of Carlos II) didn't.
 
No, that was just my weighing up of the two Saxon boys against one another. Saxony vs. Portugal is another story. There (Portugal) Anne's gotta be ready to be mom to a girl that's only a few years younger than her, as well as being wife. Some princesses of the day made the transition easily (like Mary of Modena - she managed to win over Anne and Mary IIRC, even if they were somewhat wary of her papistry. There's a story that when Mary II was leaving, she was upset (and Anne was in bed with smallpox/measles/sick), and Mary of Modena was the one who tried to console her). Others (like Maria Anna of Austria, mother of Carlos II) didn't.
Hmm this is very true, given what we know of Anne, do you think she’d be able to handle the change?
 
Hmm this is very true, given what we know of Anne, do you think she’d be able to handle the change?

No idea. But, if we work on how she handled Mary II's snubs, Sarah Churchill's defiance, Abigail Masham's obsequiousness, and Elizabeth Percy's attitude towards her, I'd say it's a good thing none of Anne's kids ever made it to teenagers, because I think Anne was someone who avoided conflict when possible, maybe more along the lines of emotional blackmail (tears, tantrums) than let's sit down and talk it out. She strikes me as a very (emotionally) immature woman, who was fine to go along with you as long as your ends were the same, almost dangerously co-dependent on others (Sarah, Abigail). I mean, at Prince George's funeral, Anne's busy whining all the way up the church steps, Sarah turns around to her and screams - in public - "not here!" and Anne lets it slide (Sarah is also the one who forced Anne to leave Windsor after George died, against Anne's wishes). But then, when she sends Sarah packing, the last interview is chilly/frosty (like something out of an encounter with Queen Victoria). Even her early years, Anne formed a close friendship with Sarah because it was what Mary did with Apsley(?).

I'm not sure Anne would be able to handle anyone who had a different opinion to her own. She might resent La Sempre Noiva if that girl has a better relationship with Pedro than Anne does. And perhaps still more because until she (Anne) has a kid, her stepdaughter's the one with the whip hand. But, that said, Luiza Isabel and Anne are close enough in age that they can maybe establish a decent relationship.

Personally, I think Anne was a very lonely person (she wasn't pretty or elegant (or firstborn) like Mary was, and she had problems with her eyesight as a child - not sure if this cleared up later). And anyone who showed her the slightest sliver of affection she clung to - in a very childish way. And that person was her sun, moon and stars for however long (in Sarah's case, nearly all her life) and she was fiercely loyal. But if that person pissed her off, then it was like opening the gates of Hell, because Anne could be a first rate bitch if she wanted to. Sending the Churchills packing - for instance - was almost petty/vindictive in the extreme. Not that Sarah behaved any better - her wake of destruction at Marlborough House when forced to leave (paintings ripped from their frames, marble slabs torn out, mirrors shattered, doors rent from their hinges "like an invading army had been through it" said one contemporary) is hardly her most shining moment.

Sorry, I know I referred a lot to Sarah Churchill and the Marlboroughs, but it's basically the closest relationship I can think of to Anne/Luiza Isabel's (both age wise and friendship wise). It's not like Anne had surviving kids that we can know how she would behave with them. I think another way would be to look at her behaviour with her half-siblings after Mary left and before her own marriage. IDK what her relationship with the Lady Isabella was like, but I'd assume that when James/Mary of Modena were out of the country, big sis Anne was Isabella's guardian/surrogate mother.
 
No idea. But, if we work on how she handled Mary II's snubs, Sarah Churchill's defiance, Abigail Masham's obsequiousness, and Elizabeth Percy's attitude towards her, I'd say it's a good thing none of Anne's kids ever made it to teenagers, because I think Anne was someone who avoided conflict when possible, maybe more along the lines of emotional blackmail (tears, tantrums) than let's sit down and talk it out. She strikes me as a very (emotionally) immature woman, who was fine to go along with you as long as your ends were the same, almost dangerously co-dependent on others (Sarah, Abigail). I mean, at Prince George's funeral, Anne's busy whining all the way up the church steps, Sarah turns around to her and screams - in public - "not here!" and Anne lets it slide (Sarah is also the one who forced Anne to leave Windsor after George died, against Anne's wishes). But then, when she sends Sarah packing, the last interview is chilly/frosty (like something out of an encounter with Queen Victoria). Even her early years, Anne formed a close friendship with Sarah because it was what Mary did with Apsley(?).

I'm not sure Anne would be able to handle anyone who had a different opinion to her own. She might resent La Sempre Noiva if that girl has a better relationship with Pedro than Anne does. And perhaps still more because until she (Anne) has a kid, her stepdaughter's the one with the whip hand. But, that said, Luiza Isabel and Anne are close enough in age that they can maybe establish a decent relationship.

Personally, I think Anne was a very lonely person (she wasn't pretty or elegant (or firstborn) like Mary was, and she had problems with her eyesight as a child - not sure if this cleared up later). And anyone who showed her the slightest sliver of affection she clung to - in a very childish way. And that person was her sun, moon and stars for however long (in Sarah's case, nearly all her life) and she was fiercely loyal. But if that person pissed her off, then it was like opening the gates of Hell, because Anne could be a first rate bitch if she wanted to. Sending the Churchills packing - for instance - was almost petty/vindictive in the extreme. Not that Sarah behaved any better - her wake of destruction at Marlborough House when forced to leave (paintings ripped from their frames, marble slabs torn out, mirrors shattered, doors rent from their hinges "like an invading army had been through it" said one contemporary) is hardly her most shining moment.

Sorry, I know I referred a lot to Sarah Churchill and the Marlboroughs, but it's basically the closest relationship I can think of to Anne/Luiza Isabel's (both age wise and friendship wise). It's not like Anne had surviving kids that we can know how she would behave with them. I think another way would be to look at her behaviour with her half-siblings after Mary left and before her own marriage. IDK what her relationship with the Lady Isabella was like, but I'd assume that when James/Mary of Modena were out of the country, big sis Anne was Isabella's guardian/surrogate mother.
Okay interesting, hmm I suppose it depends as well on political convenience. I do think that with three sons married to,Protestants, parliament might be okay with Anne marrying Pedro II. And of course seeing their relationship and that of Isabel and Anne would be fascinating.

And of course Anne was close to her brother James duke of Cambridge orL and mourned his death. I can see her and Charles duke of Cambridge being very close
 
Of course butterflies could have Isabel born as a boy and we could go from there
If Isabel is born as boy or has a twin Anne will marry him and Pedro will remarry to his OTL second wife

I struggle to see how one Saxon boy is worse than the other. Johann Georg IV was in love with a court lady (who may or may not have been his half-sister) and resented his wife because he'd had to marry her instead. Johann Georg only got tangled up with SAID lady in 1691. If he marries Anne in the mid-1680s, there's every likelihood that by the time Billa von Rochlitz comes along, Johann Georg and Anne have at least one (or more) kids. Also, if its true that Anne's husband OTL had a VD which made him the problem rather than her, then rather ONE mistress than many. In fact, I could even see Anne learning to live with it (TTL she's not queen nor likely to be, plus she's not at home, so she can't throw her toys out the pram. She's probably used to it - having seen her mother and aunt suffer similar indignities).

Friedrich August, OTOH, was unfaithful to his wife on a near hourly basis (if you believe Wilhelmine of Prussia's memoirs). He's was a playboy/fratboy who became king of Poland through luck (had his brother not died, its unlikely he would've succeeded in his venture IMO). Anne would do worse being paired with him than Johann Georg. But that's just my opinion.

Never said Friedrich was a good husband but at least his wife had children, was treated decently and considering mistresses were something usual at the time many mistresses without power were better than a powerful one...
If you can keep Johann Georg away from his OTL mistress maybe he can be a decent husband (but he was involved with her way before 1691 considering who his father also tried to keep them apart)...
OTL Johann George was one of the worst husbands possible together with OTL George I of England
 
If Isabel is born as boy or has a twin Anne will marry him and Pedro will remarry to his OTL second wife



Never said Friedrich was a good husband but at least his wife had children, was treated decently and considering mistresses were something usual at the time many mistresses without power were better than a powerful one...
If you can keep Johann Georg away from his OTL mistress maybe he can be a decent husband (but he was involved with her way before 1691 considering who his father also tried to keep them apart)...
OTL Johann George was one of the worst husbands possible together with OTL George I of England
Hmm which is the preferred route? Isabel having a twin brother, or being born a boy?
 
a healthy Spanish Habsburg

Does such a thing exist?

Either way, no way Portugal is going to risk losing its independence again so soon after they got it back. An engagement between La Sempre Noiva and Carlos II was considered, but it was sort of with the knowledge that the terms were too steep (he'd have to come live in Lisbon, since until she had a brother, she was heiress to the throne; and her health was considered lack-luster to say the least, which is why the Spanish queen dowager didn't want it)
 
Does such a thing exist?

Either way, no way Portugal is going to risk losing its independence again so soon after they got it back. An engagement between La Sempre Noiva and Carlos II was considered, but it was sort of with the knowledge that the terms were too steep (he'd have to come live in Lisbon, since until she had a brother, she was heiress to the throne; and her health was considered lack-luster to say the least, which is why the Spanish queen dowager didn't want it)
Hmm this is true, I suppose Isabel being born a boy makes things much easier then
 
So, here's what I'm thinking then:

Charles, Duke of Cambridge to Sophia Charlotte of Hanover

Mary to Louis, Le Grand Dauphin

James, Duke of Kendal to Elizabeth of Nassau

Edgar, Duke of Richmond and Lennox to Elizabeth Percy, Duchess of Northumberland

Anne to John V of Portugal (otl Isabel of Portugal)
 
So, here's what I'm thinking then:

Charles, Duke of Cambridge to Sophia Charlotte of Hanover

Mary to Louis, Le Grand Dauphin

James, Duke of Kendal to Elizabeth of Nassau

Edgar, Duke of Richmond and Lennox to Elizabeth Percy, Duchess of Northumberland

Anne to John V of Portugal (otl Isabel of Portugal)

Who is that Elizabeth of Nassau? James of Kendal's bride was not Amalie of Brandeburg?
 
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