Charles d'Orleans, the old duke of Milan

krieger

Banned
@Jan Olbracht's thread about sons of Francis I dying in captivity gave me idea to do this thread - what if Charles d'Orleans, third son of Francis I wasn't that stupid and didn't start to fight with plagued pillows? As a consequence, Charles survives and is able to marry either Anna of Austria, daughter of Ferdinand I with Milan as a dowry or Maria of Spain, daughter of emperor Charles V with either Netherlands or Franche-Comte as a dowry. Which one he would marry? Let's say he dies as a 70yo man in 1592, thus he outlives his elder brother, Henry and his children. Will there be a War of Three Henrys with undisputed, male, Salic and Catholic heir of Henry III? @Kellan Sullivan @isabella
 
Anna of Austria + Milan seems more likely. Before any war of 3 Henrys happens France would suffer greater internal instability from the very beginning of Henry III's rule. Henri and Charles (that was norm among Valois brothers, repeating generation after generation, unless Valois monarch was lucky and had no living brothers) disliked each other. Charles V wanted to strenghten position of d'Orleans to create situation similar to that which existed in France when there was Burgundian line of House of Valois around, and Henri was aware of this.
 

krieger

Banned
Anna of Austria + Milan seems more likely. Before any war of 3 Henrys happens France would suffer greater internal instability from the very beginning of Henry III's rule. Henri and Charles (that was norm among Valois brothers, repeating generation after generation, unless Valois monarch was lucky and had no living brothers) disliked each other. Charles V wanted to strenghten position of d'Orleans to create situation similar to that which existed in France when there was Burgundian line of House of Valois around, and Henri was aware of this.

Yes, but we should notice that Milan didn't have a border with France, so situation wouldn't be exactly the same. Charles also had great following among French nobility, but I think duke of Milan would meddle more during regency after the death of Henry II.
 
@Jan Olbracht's thread about sons of Francis I dying in captivity gave me idea to do this thread - what if Charles d'Orleans, third son of Francis I wasn't that stupid and didn't start to fight with plagued pillows? As a consequence, Charles survives and is able to marry either Anna of Austria, daughter of Ferdinand I with Milan as a dowry or Maria of Spain, daughter of emperor Charles V with either Netherlands or Franche-Comte as a dowry. Which one he would marry? Let's say he dies as a 70yo man in 1592, thus he outlives his elder brother, Henry and his children. Will there be a War of Three Henrys with undisputed, male, Salic and Catholic heir of Henry III? @Kellan Sullivan @isabella
No way in the hell who anyone will think to mess with French's succession with the presence of a clear indisputable heir. Henry IV's claim was contestable because his male line kinship was far away from the actual line (he was a great-nephew of Francis I sure but that kinship came froim his mother and maternal grandmother). Is like Portugal after Sebastian's death (if either the Duke of Beja had lived and/or left legitimate heirs or don Carlos and/or his line had been still alive you will not have any war of succession) or Spain at the death of Carlos II (if Margarita's line had survived you will not have any war. If she had left only one son then said son would be forced to left his father's inheritance to an half-brother or cousin)

Anna of Austria + Milan seems more likely. Before any war of 3 Henrys happens France would suffer greater internal instability from the very beginning of Henry III's rule. Henri and Charles (that was norm among Valois brothers, repeating generation after generation, unless Valois monarch was lucky and had no living brothers) disliked each other. Charles V wanted to strenghten position of d'Orleans to create situation similar to that which existed in France when there was Burgundian line of House of Valois around, and Henri was aware of this.
Well. Philip would have liked better giving him Netherlands but I also think who Charles would have liked better Anna plus Milan. About ther bad relationship between Charles and Henry II well at least until the latter's death Charles main seat would be in his own Duchy of Milan (where he would have most likely ruled as Austrian ally or shifting alliance between France, Austria and Spain at least under his brother's reign). After the death of Henry II (or Francis II) well the he would likely be back in France likely contending the regency to Catherine. An allliance between him and the Guises is absolutely possible and likely (specially if consolidated by a wedding). I absolutely see Charles of Orleans trying to get Mary of Scotland for himself (if he is widowed) or his eldest son and marrying a daughter to either Charles IX or the heir of Guise.

Yes, but we should notice that Milan didn't have a border with France, so situation wouldn't be exactly the same. Charles also had great following among French nobility, but I think duke of Milan would meddle more during regency after the death of Henry II.
Absolutely that. This and the strategical importance of Milan (who was highly contested between Austria and France) were the reasons for which Philip hoped who Orleans choosed Netherlands at cost of sacrificing his only available sister
 
Yes, but we should notice that Milan didn't have a border with France, so situation wouldn't be exactly the same. Charles also had great following among French nobility, but I think duke of Milan would meddle more during regency after the death of Henry II.

Problem was that Henri was against his brother being given Milan, since he regarded it as his birthright as the eldest son of the king of France. And, TBH, once Caterina de Medici starts popping out kids in the mid-1540s, Charles starts looking much less important with each boy born. So the marriage would have to be conducted rather quickly. That said, once François I dies, Henri probably "gives" his brother a choice - your French estates or Milan. If the latter, get out of France.
Bear in mind, Karl V is also not necessarily going to hand Milan over without a fight, his son is the duke (since 1540) after all. He's probably going to dangle it there and tell Charles to "come and get it" which will cause a new round of Italian Wars, and which, if Henri conquers it, he won't be giving it to his brother.
 
Problem was that Henri was against his brother being given Milan, since he regarded it as his birthright as the eldest son of the king of France. And, TBH, once Caterina de Medici starts popping out kids in the mid-1540s, Charles starts looking much less important with each boy born. So the marriage would have to be conducted rather quickly. That said, once François I dies, Henri probably "gives" his brother a choice - your French estates or Milan. If the latter, get out of France.
Bear in mind, Karl V is also not necessarily going to hand Milan over without a fight, his son is the duke (since 1540) after all. He's probably going to dangle it there and tell Charles to "come and get it" which will cause a new round of Italian Wars, and which, if Henri conquers it, he won't be giving it to his brother.
Not really. Karl promised in a treaty of peace either Milan or Netherlands to Charles as dowry of his daughter or niece. Secret investiture of Milan to Philip or not if Charles decide to marry Archduchess Anna and become Duke of Milan then Karl V will be forced to keeep his word while Philip and Henry can cry as they want... Hell a stunt like that you proposed for Henri to Charles after Francois' death is exactly what Karl hoped in making such offer. The number of Catherine's children is not important as more distant is Charles of Orleans from the French Crown better is for Karl V's plan to put discord in Francois' own family...
 

krieger

Banned
No way in the hell who anyone will think to mess with French's succession with the presence of a clear indisputable heir. Henry IV's claim was contestable because his male line kinship was far away from the actual line (he was a great-nephew of Francis I sure but that kinship came froim his mother and maternal grandmother). Is like Portugal after Sebastian's death (if either the Duke of Beja had lived and/or left legitimate heirs or don Carlos and/or his line had been still alive you will not have any war of succession) or Spain at the death of Carlos II (if Margarita's line had survived you will not have any war. If she had left only one son then said son would be forced to left his father's inheritance to an half-brother or cousin)

I agree. Henry's IV claim was, however, not disputable under the Salic Law, which was the law of succesion of French monarchy. It was his protestantism, which made his claim disputable (only Catholics were allowed to succeed in Paris). So you think that Charles will end up marrying Anna?

Well. Philip would have liked better giving him Netherlands but I also think who Charles would have liked better Anna plus Milan. About ther bad relationship between Charles and Henry II well at least until the latter's death Charles main seat would be in his own Duchy of Milan (where he would have most likely ruled as Austrian ally or shifting alliance between France, Austria and Spain at least under his brother's reign). After the death of Henry II (or Francis II) well the he would likely be back in France likely contending the regency to Catherine. An allliance between him and the Guises is absolutely possible and likely (specially if consolidated by a wedding). I absolutely see Charles of Orleans trying to get Mary of Scotland for himself (if he is widowed) or his eldest son and marrying a daughter to either Charles IX or the heir of Guise.

So we should stick to Anna. Charles's opinion at that time matters more than Philip's. I think Charles with his airhead personality would just stick to Austrian and Spanish interest. Later, he could champion pro-Habsburg policies in France during the regency over his young nephew, Francis. Mary of Scotland could marry Charles's son if he is born quick enough.

Problem was that Henri was against his brother being given Milan, since he regarded it as his birthright as the eldest son of the king of France. And, TBH, once Caterina de Medici starts popping out kids in the mid-1540s, Charles starts looking much less important with each boy born. So the marriage would have to be conducted rather quickly. That said, once François I dies, Henri probably "gives" his brother a choice - your French estates or Milan. If the latter, get out of France.
Bear in mind, Karl V is also not necessarily going to hand Milan over without a fight, his son is the duke (since 1540) after all. He's probably going to dangle it there and tell Charles to "come and get it" which will cause a new round of Italian Wars, and which, if Henri conquers it, he won't be giving it to his brother.

It was Charles's V idea to give Milan to duke of Orlean. Also marriage was planned in the same year, when Charles d'Orleans died and Anna of Austria married IOTL in 1546, so Milanese line of Valois would emerge before Catherine de Medici started popping out children.
 
I agree. Henry's IV claim was, however, not disputable under the Salic Law, which was the law of succesion of French monarchy. It was his protestantism, which made his claim disputable (only Catholics were allowed to succeed in Paris). So you think that Charles will end up marrying Anna?



So we should stick to Anna. Charles's opinion at that time matters more than Philip's. I think Charles with his airhead personality would just stick to Austrian and Spanish interest. Later, he could champion pro-Habsburg policies in France during the regency over his young nephew, Francis. Mary of Scotland could marry Charles's son if he is born quick enough.



It was Charles's V idea to give Milan to duke of Orlean. Also marriage was planned in the same year, when Charles d'Orleans died and Anna of Austria married IOTL in 1546, so Milanese line of Valois would emerge before Catherine de Medici started popping out children.

For me Charles will choose Anna and Milan. Philip would like better sacrificing his sister for freeing from Netherlands and keep Milan but he has no power about it and know so will accept either thing as his father's plan to create a strife in Francois' family forcing him to deal with the confict between his sons instead of attacking Austria and Spain would be good for the Spanish's finances... Losing a valuable territory would be acceptable if in exchange you get peace and possibly a new ally and discord in your enemy's own house.
 
It was Charles's V idea to give Milan to duke of Orlean. Also marriage was planned in the same year, when Charles d'Orleans died and Anna of Austria married IOTL in 1546, so Milanese line of Valois would emerge before Catherine de Medici started popping out children.

Caterina's first son is born in January 1544, her first daughter in April 1545, so the Milanese Valois will at earliest be emerging after Henri's second or third child's birth.

Not really. Karl promised in a treaty of peace either Milan or Netherlands to Charles as dowry of his daughter or niece. Secret investiture of Milan to Philip or not if Charles decide to marry Archduchess Anna and become Duke of Milan then Karl V will be forced to keeep his word while Philip and Henry can cry as they want... Hell a stunt like that you proposed for Henri to Charles after Francois' death is exactly what Karl hoped in making such offer. The number of Catherine's children is not important as more distant is Charles of Orleans from the French Crown better is for Karl V's plan to put discord in Francois' own family...

I understand this point, although I feel Karl V was perhaps making a promise that he had no intention of keeping (the Habsburgs promised the Tudors the dukedom of Milan for Henry FitzRoy at one point - while there were Sforzas still running around). Or that he intended it to be a non-permanent situation (i.e. that the Habsburgs would take Milan back in the next round of wars)
 

krieger

Banned
Caterina's first son is born in January 1544, her first daughter in April 1545, so the Milanese Valois will at earliest be emerging after Henri's second or third child's birth.

They were still small children at the time of Charles's planned wedding. They could die soon as well, as far as Charles V knew.
 
Why would Henri II die like IOTL? His death was freak accident, one in million chance, and it happened during tournament to celebrate peace of Cateau-Cambresis. Would Cateau-Cambresis still happen, on the same day, with the same weather etc. ?
 
Caterina's first son is born in January 1544, her first daughter in April 1545, so the Milanese Valois will at earliest be emerging after Henri's second or third child's birth.



I understand this point, although I feel Karl V was perhaps making a promise that he had no intention of keeping (the Habsburgs promised the Tudors the dukedom of Milan for Henry FitzRoy at one point - while there were Sforzas still running around). Or that he intended it to be a non-permanent situation (i.e. that the Habsburgs would take Milan back in the next round of wars)
Karl had too much troubles around in that period and not enough money for paying all the armies needed. Giving Milan/Netherlands and a bride from his family to Francis' younger son was clearly a means for getting an ally from Francis' family. Milan would be most likely assigned to Anna in the wedding contract (as the Duchy was offered as her dowry) making Charles of Orleans, Duke of Milan jure uxoris. The rich Milan and a bride with impeccable bloodline on both sides would without doubt incited the jealousy of Henri (who in the end had married an heiress of bankers with a lot of money, and acceptable blood and good lands only from her mother's side).

They were still small children at the time of Charles's planned wedding. They could die soon as well, as far as Charles V knew.
The last thing who Karl V wanted was gifting Milan to the King of France, his plan was getting an Orleanist Dukedom of Milan as thorn in the side for France...

Why would Henri II die like IOTL? His death was freak accident, one in million chance, and it happened during tournament to celebrate peace of Cateau-Cambresis. Would Cateau-Cambresis still happen, on the same day, with the same weather etc. ?
Well, maybe Henri can not die exactly like that but can die in the same timeframe for another accident/illness...
 
A too often overlooked fact is that any younger French Prince, who would marry the proposed Habsburg archduchess and/or infanta for Milan or the Burgundian territories, should also be provided with a lot of French appanages. This condition caused a lot discontent and opposition with the Dauphin, and made it more difficult too accept for any King of France.
Omitting this IMHO misrepresents the deal, this deal was not suggested because the Habsburgs were so much weaker; sure the Habsburgs lost some territories, but France would lose a lot too.
 
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