Charlemagne WI

what if Charlemagne had failed to conquer the "Saxons" (in OTL it took him 30 years and several campaigns to pacify this region of western OTL german, not to mention a lot of deaths and destruction towards the saxon people). so basically what would be the immediate (roughly speaking) affects of Charlemagne being forced to withdraw from the "saxons" land (i'm using the word saxon loosely here, knowing the region was comprised of many germanic tribes). thanks for your imput. :rolleyes:
 

Valdemar II

Banned
While I don't get the use of a :rolleyes:, this is a interesting POD. I would say it depend when it happens if it happens early. We will see Widukind deal with Saxon nobility and set up a more centralise state, from there we will see conflicts with Denmark over the dominance over the Wends. If it happens later, Widukind will defacto be a Danish vassal (Widukind fleed to Denmark after every loss and was lend Danish warriors in the later rebellions), and Saxon policies the next many years will be to losen the bond of fealthy to Denmark. Christianity will likely have a somewhat harder time spreading, especially because Saxony will be quite centralise with the depowering of the nobility, through it will likely still win out.
 
While I don't get the use of a :rolleyes:
i had meant to put :), i was in a hurry and accidentially put the ;) my bad :eek:

I would say it depend when it happens if it happens early. We will see Widukind deal with Saxon nobility and set up a more centralise state, from there we will see conflicts with Denmark over the dominance over the Wends. If it happens later, Widukind will defacto be a Danish vassal (Widukind fleed to Denmark after every loss and was lend Danish warriors in the later rebellions), and Saxon policies the next many years will be to losen the bond of fealthy to Denmark. Christianity will likely have a somewhat harder time spreading, especially because Saxony will be quite centralise with the depowering of the nobility, through it will likely still win out.

i'll be the first to admit my knowledge of this time period is sketchy to say the best. now that aside, the Danish vassel (at least for a short time period) seems the most plausible, at least if "Saxony" wants to remain free and not be conquered at a later date. now assuming Saxony does remain free, and (for a time at least) remains pagan, and breaks free of being a Danish vassal, how do you think this will impact the future development of the region of germany. maybe a germany more centered on saxony, or with saxony as the main power... either way the butterflies will be large.

this is a interesting POD.

thats what i think 2 :cool: but most people just laugh and say Saxony did not have a chance in h@ll at surviving... :(
 
thats what i think 2 :cool: but most people just laugh and say Saxony did not have a chance in h@ll at surviving... :(

Saxony did not have a chance in hell at surviving as long as the Empire was dedicated to subjugating it. The POD would have to be in the remarkable persistence that Charlemagne showed, not the resistance of the Saxons. That shouldn't be too hard, though - Charles did retreat in other places where he got himself a bloody nose. There's been a bit of speculation why he was so hellbent on reducing Saxony - wounded pride, traditional enmity, Christian missionary impulse, a sense of betrayal - and depending on which one you want to go with, you can shape your POD accordingly. Maybe the Franks could lose a couple dukes and counts and Charlemagne goes away, or other opponents prove more troublesome (the Agilofings or the Lombards are good candidates). A concerted 'Southern' strategy could be interesting. Charles decides after conquering Lombard Italy and reasserting control over Aquitaine to round out his control in that directiopn. He takes over Agilolfing Bavaria, pushes into Benevent and Spoleto, squares off against the Caliphate and maybe moves harder and earlier into the Balkans while leaving Saxony as a sideshow which he contains and keeps on the back burner.

Later on, the idea of Danish intervention is a good one. The Danes were supporting Widukind and they were concerned about the Frankish encroachment. Concerned, but not scared - they could give him a really hard time..
 
Saxony did not have a chance in hell at surviving as long as the Empire was dedicated to subjugating it.

i was thinking along the lines of the country of saxony as a whole... not just in this narrow time period.

now what if, say, Charlemagne is killed during his campaign in Saxony. An arrow strikes him down or what not (killed in battle, ambushed, etc...). How would this affect things. I know he had three sons that his kingdom would be divided amongst. now if he dies early, is it possible to get a war of succession going, in which case saxony will be left in the sidelines?
 
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