Charlemagne marries Empress Irene in 801 AD

EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

Now this is a bit of a stretch, but while listening to the "History of Byzantium Podcast" recently they mentioned that Empress Irene, and Charles the Great, were at odds imperially. Now apparently (and with a brief skim around the web there appears to be only one source that supports this contention) so the evidence is skimpy. But bearing the idea in mind, what if in 801 Irene had offered Charlemagne a proposal of marriage, with the idea in theory of reuniting the "Roman People" against an outside threat.

The age difference isn't great, Irene is 49 in 801 AD and Charlemagne is somewhere between 51 and 57, so that's doable and she could still probably produce an heir, if they ah...got busy soon after the wedding.

However, given Irene's lust for power (she killed her own son after all) and her desire not to be supplanted, and the scheming of the Palace eunuchs over her successor, would this be a viable option? Much less would the Frankish nobles accept such a merger?

The Papacy would clearly disapprove, but what could they do about it?

As a second question if the first proposal is viable: Would such an imperial merger work? It would in theory connect lands from Anatolia to Barcelona, and give the "Roman Empire" huge pools of manpower to draw from.

For reference:

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Rough approximation of the extent of both empires and other powers in the era.

Thoughts?
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

That's, I'm afraid, quite impossible and probably not historical to begin with.

St. Theophanes is the only one mentioningythis ludicrous storu, among a whole lot of chronicles (both Latin and Greek) that don't say a single word about it. It must be understood as a part of anti-Studite narrative of St. Theophanes, as Studites were particularily favoured by Irene's patronage on monasteries.

It makes little sense both from a Byzantine or Frankish perspective. And by little sense, I mean it's bollocks.
 
Stuyvesant

Stuyvesant

LSCatilina said:
That's, I'm afraid, quite impossible and probably not historical to begin with.

St. Theophanes is the only one mentioningythis ludicrous storu, among a whole lot of chronicles (both Latin and Greek) that don't say a single word about it. It must be understood as a part of anti-Studite narrative of St. Theophanes, as Studites were particularily favoured by Irene's patronage on monasteries.

It makes little sense both from a Byzantine or Frankish perspective. And by little sense, I mean it's bollocks.
Click to expand...
TL;DR: This ain't CK2
 
BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

EnglishCanuck said:
But bearing the idea in mind, what if in 801 Irene had offered Charlemagne a proposal of marriage, with the idea in theory of reuniting the "Roman People" against an outside threat.
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Irene didn't consider the Franks to be Roman, despite some title that the Pope gave Charlemagne. Also, what outside threat? The Saxons were for all purposes dead, the Vikings hadn't yet bothered anyone outside of the British Isles and the Franks couldn't do anything about the Abbasids.

EnglishCanuck said:
The age difference isn't great, Irene is 49 in 801 AD and Charlemagne is somewhere between 51 and 57, so that's doable and she could still probably produce an heir, if they ah...got busy soon after the wedding.
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This ignores the fact that Charlemagne had plenty of heirs - Charles Jr, Pippin of Italy, Louis the Pious and possibly Pippin the Hunchback. Considering he was quite worried about his own succession, Charlemagne won't want another one - Gripho caused a lot of trouble as a latecomer heir (to Pippin III and Karloman around 741), and Charlemagne's own brother had also caused a bit of trouble (although he was dealt with before he became a problem for Charlemagne).

Also, given the Frankish custom, wouldn't Charles Jr and others start demanding pieces of the ERE after they had a half-brother in line for that throne? Also given that custom, wouldn't they all start fighting for it?

EnglishCanuck said:
As a second question if the first proposal is viable: Would such an imperial merger work? It would in theory connect lands from Anatolia to Barcelona, and give the "Roman Empire" huge pools of manpower to draw from.
Click to expand...

Uhhh... Francia only went as far east as Venice. The ERE didn't have anything more than a coastal strip for much of the Eastern Adriatic coast, and that is quite vulnerable to raids from Bulgars and Slavs. There is also the question of where the court would be located (Charlemagne won't want to move out of the Frankish heartlands, and abandoning Constantinople would make Irene furious), and how the manpower from the east can even get to the west or vice versa. It takes like 3+ months to march between France and Anatolia.

If somehow these questions get answered and the marriage does occur without a huge civil war, the result is a superblob that lasts for about a decade before collapsing under its own weight. Feudal empires simply could not get very big before nobles would start declaring themselves independent and starting wars amongst themselves.

- BNC
 

Bee

An obvious joint project is the elimination of the last independent Lombard duchies. A joint expedition against Bulgaria might follow. Thereafter, a succession dispute is looming.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

Benevent, at this point, is already more or less into Carolingian sphere of influence, up to acknowledging Frankish suzerainty (even if more than often at swordpoint) and paying tributes.
 

Bee

True, and in OTL the HRE was willing to let them be. But the Byzantines would want them eliminated.
 
LSCatilina

LSCatilina

I'm not really sure : Bevenent was playing one said against the other historically (not that it did bring them any luck) and in the ASB event of such union, it would probably like as sort of condominum between both spheres of the super-duper Carolingio-Byzantium behemoth. Such practice wasn't really unknown of both : the de facto-condominium over Crovars for Franks, Cyprus between Abassids and Byzzies.
 

DominusNovus

You'd be better off with the marriage between Constantine VI and Rotrude going through, giving the Byzantines an acceptable marriage link between the two realms.
 
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